posted Mar-08-2006 09:27 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:

The same applies to breakfast.

--Jimmy

---

You do this just to see if we read everything,don't you?

 

posted Mar-08-2006 10:43 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by diane143:
You do this just to see if we read everything,don't you?

---

There's nothing worse than a breakfast plateau. I was on one for two years. I was caught in a "Captain Crunch with skim milk" hell. I was rescued by a French-toast-with-almond-butter- wielding woman with a zest for life.

maf,
Jimmy

My Running World
My Maffetone Low-HR Training Experiment

posted Mar-08-2006 11:11 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by runawayjesse:
Thanks Tchuck. That's one I haven't been on before. I"ll talk to my doctor.

---

I take singulair as well. Seems not to have any effect on my
heart rate, or on anything else for that matter, other than my asthma.
And, at least as long as I'm running, it takes care of my asthma
completely. If you try it, you may have to take it for at least a
couple of weeks before it kicks in and really starts working.

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MyRunningLog

MyStuff

Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
 

posted Mar-09-2006 01:35 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
Hey all - got a new PR today for the marathon,
...

avg HR = 169 overall, max of 184
7:27/151, 7:17/164, 7:34/166, 7:18/166, 7:25/166,
7:10/165, 7:05/166, 7:36/168, 7:31/166, 7:28/166,
7:14/167, 7:24/167, 7:29/169, 7:27/171, 7:38/173,
7:46/171, 7:33/175, 7:46/173, 7:44/173, 7:46/168,
7:43/173, 8:01/173, 8:02/172, 8:00/173, 7:59/171,
7:55/176, 2:17(7:52/mi)/180
...

---

So, if I''ve condensed this 63-page thread correctly, your MAF is 145, you've done all your training at that level with no threshold/speed runs, and you PR'ed a marathon with what looks like about a 170bpm average? That's remarkable. I'm just starting up again after an injury, and this might be a good way to start from scratch, at least for base mileage. Or did I miss something? It's a long thread.
PerfesserR
MM

posted Mar-09-2006 04:16 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by PerfesserR:
So, if I''ve condensed this 63-page thread correctly, your MAF is 145, you've done all your training at that level with no threshold/speed runs, and you PR'ed a marathon with what looks like about a 170bpm average? That's remarkable. I'm just starting up again after an injury, and this might be a good way to start from scratch, at least for base mileage. Or did I miss something? It's a long thread.
PerfesserR
MM

---

that sums it up pretty well. except, you may choose to do some faster work after your base and before your race. other than that, run easy, run long and watch the pace improve.

have fun.

--jm

posted Mar-10-2006 12:10 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by PerfesserR:
So, if I''ve condensed this 63-page thread correctly, your MAF is 145, you've done all your training at that level with no threshold/speed runs, and you PR'ed a marathon with what looks like about a 170bpm average? That's remarkable. I'm just starting up again after an injury, and this might be a good way to start from scratch, at least for base mileage. Or did I miss something? It's a long thread.
PerfesserR
MM

---

MAF is 144 nowadays (changed since the start) and I run most at
139. I do no threshold or speed runs whatsoever, other than the
occasionaly race. You did not miss anything. (The average heart
rate in the marathon was 169). You can look at
all of my training log and see pretty much every mile split I've
run over the past couple of years, and what the average heart rate
has been over that split. I believe I've also summarized a good
percentage of the key elements of this training in the FAQ (I suggest
you skim through it - it provides many of the caveats). The week
before the marathon, I PRed in the 10 mile race, with higher average
heart rate (you can go back a few more messages and see those
splits). If you start somewhere near the beginning, you can also see
how god-awful slow I was when I started up and how long it took to
get from horribly slow to dead slow to slow to pretty slow to tolerable
to reasonably fast at MAF heart rate.

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MyRunningLog

MyStuff

Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
 

posted Mar-10-2006 08:37 AM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by d3finition:
im currently 17 so 180-17 is 163. my heart rate normall stays at 150+ and sometimes when i need to run faster to not be an obstacle on the pavement or maybe running across roads it tends to hit 180+ for maybe 10 seconds or so will that affect my training or so i STRICTLY need to keep it under maf

---

LowHR training isn't generally considered applicable to those under 18. Many coaches probably wouldn't recommend using an HR monitor, except maybe as an adjunct tool on someone your age. are you running on your own or a school team or thinking about joining a school team? Just my opinion, but you might want to just run so you enjoy it and keep your runs easy by other measures.

--jm
 

posted Mar-10-2006 09:14 AM            

Now back to our regularly scheduled program.

:rolleyes
Running Shoe Critique:

From an industry insider: *previous shoe designer for Nike, NB and Saucony:
It's time somebody informed runners about the truth about running shoes...

Running shoes that cost over $100 are typically -
A) Overpriced
B) Overbuilt
C) Built with stuff to convince you they are better
D) Not needed by 90% of the running population

Take your pick from A-D above.
The major running shoe companies have for years increased prices because some runners feel compelled to buy " The BEST" shoe. The shoe that cost the most must be better.
Not so. In fact the best shoe for you might cost $75 bucks retail or $85 or $95. The problem is simply this.
In order to sell higher priced shoes, to justify the price the designer has to add stuff to the shoe. Lots of stuff like plastic gismos and fancy patterns and nice acronyms. You know what I mean if you have been a runner for a while.

(note: in fact the expensive shoes cost only a buck more to make than the basic models - no kidding)

And everytime you turn around, they are re-designing the darn shoes. Oh, this model is 100% better because... we added the Dyno-foam-cradle=motion=thingie. But wait, you loved the last model, it supported your feet, it had great cushion. Now don't get me wrong, for a few people they need all this stuff. But for the great majority of runners it is overkill.

Here are a few examples of proof.
We surveyed over 200 serious runners about their shoe preferences. These are runners that win or place all the time in races, that run tons of miles.. What do they wear..
The most basic trainers that cost between $70 and $100.
None of them wore the expensive models. Even though they run 2-5 times as much as the casual runner. What does that tell you..

More: In surveying hundreds of regular runners, 95% of them wore 2-3 models. Meaning there is no superior technology that worked better, it simply came down to fit, feel and function. They take the model that works this year and wear it until they change the darn thing..

So whats a runner to do..
Boycott those expensive over built models.
Just say no ....
Now for the blatant plug
Check out this companys site
www.locorunning.com
They make great shoes that dont change for 5 years.
6000 runners have tried them all accross the country
and many love them just as much or more than the big guys.
Best of all, this is a company owned and run by runners who supports the running community... Prices for decent shoes go from $59- $90 Not bad ....

Mike.

------------------
Mike
Runner since 1969
www.locorunning.com
 

posted Mar-10-2006 10:42 AM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
If you start somewhere near the beginning, you can also see
how god-awful slow I was when I started up and how long it took to
get from horribly slow to dead slow to slow to pretty slow to tolerable
to reasonably fast at MAF heart rate.

---

OK well I've done a baseline on the treadmill at 1%, MAF 133, and I'm doing a scorching 4.5 mph, or 13+ minute miles. This will take some attitude adjustment, but I think I'll give it a try. The good thing is that I should be able to do some good endurance HRT on the recumbent bike while my legs are getting back up to speed.

 

posted Mar-10-2006 11:09 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
I take singulair as well. Seems not to have any effect on my
heart rate, or on anything else for that matter, other than my asthma.
And, at least as long as I'm running, it takes care of my asthma
completely. If you try it, you may have to take it for at least a
couple of weeks before it kicks in and really starts working.

---

I used to sell Singulair when I was in pharmaceutical sales. I would get a lot of great stories from docs. Also, it works quite well for exercise induced asthma. There are many docs that think because it has no side effects, that it is a weak drug. Well, for some it doesn't work, but for some it works unbelievably. Singulair is a leukotriene blocker. Leukotrienes cause allergy/asthma symptoms. Different people have different mediators or some are more prevalent than others. If your symptoms are mediated by primarily leukotrienes, you get better relief.

------------------
My Profile
 

posted Mar-10-2006 12:16 PM            

PerfesserR,
If you already have a base at faster paces your pace will drop soon enough. I started six weeks ago with a MAF of 133 also. My first paces were like yours but are now down in the mid-10's. Still a long way from 7-9m/m paces I trained at before but no nagging injuries. I ran a 5k last weekend to see how much speed I had lost. Was pleasantly surprised to run a 21:15 on a difficult course which was just 45 seconds off my PR on an easy course.

------------------
Clay
 

posted Mar-10-2006 01:25 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by junkmiles:
LowHR training isn't generally considered applicable to those under 18. Many coaches probably wouldn't recommend using an HR monitor, except maybe as an adjunct tool on someone your age. are you running on your own or a school team or thinking about joining a school team? Just my opinion, but you might want to just run so you enjoy it and keep your runs easy by other measures.

--jm

---

im running basically myself with a few aims, to sub 10 minutes for the 2.4km by next year, run a HM at a 8 min mile pace by 20 years old. Currently i find my runs rather easy and i have not much problem keeping up with the pacing except due to the longer distances (6km now) my ankles get a little sore.

posted Mar-10-2006 08:01 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by d3finition:
im running basically myself with a few aims, to sub 10 minutes for the 2.4km by next year, run a HM at a 8 min mile pace by 20 years old. Currently i find my runs rather easy and i have not much problem keeping up with the pacing except due to the longer distances (6km now) my ankles get a little sore.

---

The problem is that at age 17, you may not see any of the progress
that one would expect to see from heart rate monitor training, at least
according to the experts. That's not to say that you won't likely benefit
from putting in a couple of months of easy-paced training to build a base.
However, I don't know that the heart rate monitor will be that important
for you. Nonetheless, if you want to experiment and post your results,
it would be interesting to see that data point.

------------------
MyRunningLog

MyStuff

Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
 

posted Mar-12-2006 08:26 AM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by crb81:

PerfesserR,
If you already have a base at faster paces your pace will drop soon enough. I started six weeks ago with a MAF of 133 also. My first paces were like yours but are now down in the mid-10's. Still a long way from 7-9m/m paces I trained at before but no nagging injuries. I ran a 5k last weekend to see how much speed I had lost. Was pleasantly surprised to run a 21:15 on a difficult course which was just 45 seconds off my PR on an easy course.

---

I wonder how muscle-specific the training is. I can't yet run much (up to 30 whole minutes) while I'm rehabing this injury, so I've been doing long, boring sessions on the recumbent bike.

posted Mar-12-2006 05:01 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by PerfesserR:
I wonder how muscle-specific the training is. I can't yet run much (up to 30 whole minutes) while I'm rehabing this injury, so I've been doing long, boring sessions on the recumbent bike.

---

That's about where I was when I started (back to the beginning of this
thread). Recovering from the bone bruise, I could only do a couple sessions
of 2 or 3 miles a day, each week. You can actually track it in my running
log from around the time of the start of this thread.

------------------
MyRunningLog

MyStuff

Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
 

posted Mar-12-2006 05:20 PM            

7:02/151, 7:05/163, 7:11/164, 7:06/166, 7:16/165,
7:19/166, 7:14/165, 7:22/165, 7:23/165, 7:19/165,
7:23/166, 7:32/166, 7:30/166, 7:34/167, 7:42/168,
7:52/170, 8:21/169, 8:17/168, 8:13/169, 8:44/172,
8:46/170, 8:35/163(may have been low readings for
a few minutes), 9:01/168, 9:03/168, 9:05/171,
9:10/171, 3:57(8:19/mi)/167

avg pace: 7:54, avg HR: 168

More details in the race report to come, but suffice it to say that
before my HR training, I struggled to hit 3:50-4 hr marathons
and in the last four weeks, I've done 3:34, 3:19, and 3:29,
including PRs for the marathon, half marathon, and the 10
mile race distance (which was done the one week that I wasn't
running a marathon) and I ran a long run the day before the
last 2 marathons. Less than 2 years ago, I was injured or
sore all the time on just 40-60 miles per week, posting the
standard posts you see in basic training and the med tent
asking what to do about my injuries.

carbs: the race provided ultima replenisher (which has pretty
much no calories or carbs). I took one accel gel at mile 13
as a precaution, but that's it. No food or carbs before the
race. I'm particularly amazed that the extreme heat (extreme
for my running anyway) only took 10 minutes off of my
PR time from last week. In the "old" days, I would have
finished in this temp in no better than 4:15 or 4:20, very
painfully with a lot of walking.

------------------
MyRunningLog

MyStuff

Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
 

posted Mar-13-2006 01:13 AM            

LOL

--Jimmy

My Running World
My Maffetone Low-HR Training Experiment

 

posted Mar-13-2006 01:29 AM            

I'm regularly adding hills to my runs now. I keep the HR below MAF, and the hills are pretty slow, but I'm running.

I'm running the Boston Marathon next month as a training run for the Sugarloaf/USA Marathon in Maine in May. Then it's on to a summer racing season. Although, I'm considering taking this Maffetone base building to the plateau--just to see how low I can bring my base aerobic pace. If I find I'm making progress still, I might bag racing and any anaerobic work until the plateau happens. It might be a worthwhile experiment to build the most rock solid aerobic base that I can, then add the anaerobic stuff. Take that into a bunch of races to see how I do. We'll see--just speculating--

One mile at a time!

--Jimmy

My Running World
My Maffetone Low-HR Training Experiment

posted Mar-13-2006 05:29 AM            

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MyRunningLog

MyStuff

Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
 

posted Mar-13-2006 08:51 AM            

------------------
Sue
 

posted Mar-13-2006 09:39 AM         

So, my best training time for 13 miles was 2:48. I train at around 135-138...drifting to 142, but if I go much higher I usually end up with a post-exercise migraine.

So, basically my HR is never allowed to go above 145.

Sunday, my HRM was acting up at the beginning (cold hands I think...I use thing finger type monitor) and by the time it started reading I was at 158. I immediately tried to slow but really couldn't (we were in a race!). So, I kept checking my breathing and all seemed well. So, I lowered it a bit to 152-155 and kept going. At certain times I slowed enough to get it to 145 or so, but then it would zoom back up.

At the last 3 miles I decided I was already going to get the H/A so I increased to 161. I still wasn't breathing hard. In the straight-a-way I increased to 171 and started to pass some people 200 yards before the finish line. I still wasn't really breathing hard. I finished in 2:24:24 or an 11:01 pace.

I did drink about 10 grams of L-Glutamine in a small bottle of water the first 4 miles of the race and drank more in water right after...and then kept taking more until I ran out.

I cannot figure this out at all...other than to say that the Lydiard (or Maffetone) training method works like no other. But, I am still not sure why after this race I did not get one major migraine. In other words, I get migraines when I go anaerobic. And, even at 171 I don't seem to have gone anaerobic. But, I should have.

Can anyone help me?
 

posted Mar-13-2006 10:08 AM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by CSuzette:
Something strange happened at the half marathon I ran on Sunday.

So, my best training time for 13 miles was 2:48. I train at around 135-138...drifting to 142, but if I go much higher I usually end up with a post-exercise migraine.

So, basically my HR is never allowed to go above 145.

Sunday, my HRM was acting up at the beginning (cold hands I think...I use thing finger type monitor) and by the time it started reading I was at 158. I immediately tried to slow but really couldn't (we were in a race!). So, I kept checking my breathing and all seemed well. So, I lowered it a bit to 152-155 and kept going. At certain times I slowed enough to get it to 145 or so, but then it would zoom back up.

At the last 3 miles I decided I was already going to get the H/A so I increased to 161. I still wasn't breathing hard. In the straight-a-way I increased to 171 and started to pass some people 200 yards before the finish line. I still wasn't really breathing hard. I finished in 2:24:24 or an 11:01 pace.

I did drink about 10 grams of L-Glutamine in a small bottle of water the first 4 miles of the race and drank more in water right after...and then kept taking more until I ran out.

I cannot figure this out at all...other than to say that the Lydiard (or Maffetone) training method works like no other. But, I am still not sure why after this race I did not get one major migraine. In other words, I get migraines when I go anaerobic. And, even at 171 I don't seem to have gone anaerobic. But, I should have.

Can anyone help me?

---

just some speculation.

your monitor may have been in error, not sure how accurate the finger type monitors are, but I'm sure they are less so than the chest straps. you HR could have been elevated from the excitement/anxiety/tension of being in the race. In that case, you weren't necessarily working anaerobically since you HR was elevated for reasons other than muscular exertion. No idea on the impact of L-Glutamine, but I doubt it played a role if you have used it before in training without incident, which you should have, since you don't want to experiment during a race.

--jm
 

posted Mar-13-2006 11:28 AM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by CSuzette:

Can anyone help me?

---

Try having a wheat bagel 90 minutes before your next 1/2 marathon. I guarantee you'll knock 20 minutes off your PR.

posted Mar-13-2006 02:30 PM            

You are doing great. Congratulations on your recent performances. I was looking at your running log. It is remarkable. I cannot believe that you ran 19 miles and cycle the day before a Marathon and still did so well. Is there a reason for you doing that much work the day before? I looked at your log and I am amazed at the amount of running you are doing. I have increased my mileage significantly with little or no side effects. However, I am more using Hadd versus Maffetone. I am wondering if I should modify my training to be more of a Maffetone type training. I am 11 weeks away from a Marathon and I am planning to finish in 3:00hrs. I have been using the millage schedule on this web site for the Competitive Marathon. Do you think I should maybe increase the amount of mileage suggested on this schedule since I am doing low HR training? I have not done any farlick or tempo run or even hill specific training.
Once again congratulations!