posted Mar-06-2006 12:40 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by d3finition:
just a few questions jesse, how many times a week do you recommend i run below my maf? i normally do it for abt 40 minutes and i plan to add 10% milage per week. also do i just consistently add milage to improve? i've read that speed will naturally come but im curious to know how will it come to you despite going at the same heart rate and increasing distance, i mean, should you just be suited more to the longer dist and mantain the same speed? just curious.

---

Educate yourself. Try reading the book, if you haven't:

http://www.pccoach.com/products/books/book_fit_t4e.htm

If you are going to try this method, it's really very, very simple. You establish your MAF with the formula and rules found in the book or on the following page (which are from the book):

http://www.rrca.org/publicat/slowdown.html

Now, you have a choice to how many miles you want to run. If you want to run 10 mpw, do so. Whatver. The more miles you run under your MAF, the faster your aerobic system will improve. If you're a beginner, I suggest you build by 5% per week instead of 10%. Take your time.

If you are going to really try this method, then you run ALL your training miles under or at your MAF until your training times stop improving. Then work on your anaerobic muscle fibers with some speedwork.

Have fun.

--Jimmy

My Running World
My Maffetone Low-HR Training Experiment

posted Mar-06-2006 01:59 PM         

Thanks
 

posted Mar-06-2006 04:17 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by runawayjesse:
Just wanted to throw this out their. Their was some discussion on another board about running below 70% MHR. One poster says that, assuming your fit that this won't be enough stimulus to make any aerobic gains. This interests me because after 11 weeks MAF, I have seen little pace improvement. Sense most people's MAF HR equates to under 70% MHR, I was wondering what some of you may think of this person's comment? I tried to get more of an explaination from the poster but no comment yet.

Thanks

---

Just my opinion:

The key point seems to be if you are fit. Short runs under 70% maxHR are generally consider recovery runs and long slow distance runs may start out near 70% but usually rise to the 75%+ range. If you are fit and following a Pfitzinger type plan then your long runs are at 20-10% slower than marathon pace, which is probably not a 70% effort.

Many plans put your foundation or basebuilding runs at 75% or so (up to 80%) and under 70% for recovery. If you aren't fit you can make progress at 70% or even less. And even if you are somewhat fit, you'd probably make progress at 70% depending on the kind of training you had been doing up to that point. Although, it would probably be pretty slow progress. If you can run a reasonably fast 5K, but can't hold a decent pace at 70%maxHR then you aren't fit and would likely see progress at the lowHR even if it is slow progress.

--jm

"[In training] You can't run too slow, but you can run too fast."
(runaway)Jesse guess who said that.
 

posted Mar-06-2006 06:59 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by runawayjesse:
Just wanted to throw this out their. Their was some discussion on another board about running below 70% MHR. One poster says that, assuming your fit that this won't be enough stimulus to make any aerobic gains. This interests me because after 11 weeks MAF, I have seen little pace improvement. Sense most people's MAF HR equates to under 70% MHR, I was wondering what some of you may think of this person's comment? I tried to get more of an explaination from the poster but no comment yet.

Thanks

---

I think jm put it quite well, but one of the common criticisms is
that you're not working hard enough. I can only say that it wasn't
the case for me and that my earliest pace was 17 minutes/mile
and that was right at MAF, not below. Also, I assume you read
the Matt Russ article in the FAQ where he talks about the fact
that new runners may not make much progress early on, "new"
having as an ambiguous definition as anything else.

In short, you're just about through the 12 weeks, so it's a good
time for you to jump into another phase. One thing I don't think
you have shown is your range of pace/HR for several of your
runs each week, as opposed to just the pace summary that you
show. Can you put a MAF test in for, say, weeks 2, 4, 6, 8,
10? It might give some ideas. I assume you're changing
runs around, adding mileage, including a long run (possibly
getting bit longer periodically), etc. I know that hurryinhoosier
saw very limited progress for a couple of months, perhaps
even 3, and then it all started to kick in and now his results
are starting to follow a trend like mine. Everyone's individual,
without a doubt.

------------------
MyRunningLog

MyStuff

Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
 

posted Mar-06-2006 08:17 PM            

Noquickfix,
Actually, Maffetone would set your MAFF at 147. Why would you set it at 130? That pace has to be very frustrating. I would think you could set it at 142 and expect progress.

------------------
Clay
 

posted Mar-06-2006 11:41 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Noquickfix:
I'm having the same thoughts Jesse. I'm only 7 weeks in, I set my MAFF at 130, but by definition it should be 142 (180-38=142 & three years of competitive improvement). I don't want to abandon this target zone, however, at about week twelve I figure I've got to move up. I've been averaging 40 mile week

---

Your MAF is 147. If I were you, and I'm not (but I do play you in my independent movies), I would get up to 130 average by mile 2-3, hold your pace and let your HR get up into the 142-147 zone by the end of your run, slowing down if you have to, or speeding up.

Also, a long run every two weeks or so will do your progress wonders.

Keep going!

--Jimmy

My Running World
My Maffetone Low-HR Training Experiment

posted Mar-06-2006 11:49 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by runawayjesse:
Just wanted to throw this out their. Their was some discussion on another board about running below 70% MHR. One poster says that, assuming your fit that this won't be enough stimulus to make any aerobic gains. This interests me because after 11 weeks MAF, I have seen little pace improvement. Sense most people's MAF HR equates to under 70% MHR, I was wondering what some of you may think of this person's comment? I tried to get more of an explaination from the poster but no comment yet.

Thanks

---

That may be true if you're running the same mileage every week with no long runs of ny significance. If you run a 15-24 miler every week at 70% and below, there will be stimilus, depending on your fitness. In fact a long run will also stimulate your fast twitch fibers once the slow twitch fibers become exhausted. There's all sorts of stimulation.

I think when someone's workout becomes the same thing all the time, then there will always be a plateau of some kind. That includes running at 70% and below all the time. That's why you either need to increase your distance at some point, or start anaerobic work at some point.

The same applies to breakfast.

--Jimmy

My Running World
My Maffetone Low-HR Training Experiment

posted Mar-07-2006 01:21 AM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
I think jm put it quite well, but one of the common criticisms is
that you're not working hard enough. I can only say that it wasn't
the case for me and that my earliest pace was 17 minutes/mile
and that was right at MAF, not below. Also, I assume you read
the Matt Russ article in the FAQ where he talks about the fact
that new runners may not make much progress early on, "new"
having as an ambiguous definition as anything else.

In short, you're just about through the 12 weeks, so it's a good
time for you to jump into another phase. One thing I don't think
you have shown is your range of pace/HR for several of your
runs each week, as opposed to just the pace summary that you
show. Can you put a MAF test in for, say, weeks 2, 4, 6, 8,
10? It might give some ideas. I assume you're changing
runs around, adding mileage, including a long run (possibly
getting bit longer periodically), etc. I know that hurryinhoosier
saw very limited progress for a couple of months, perhaps
even 3, and then it all started to kick in and now his results
are starting to follow a trend like mine. Everyone's individual,
without a doubt.

---

In my 11 weeks my mileage has went from 25 to 44 mpw. I include 1 long run, 2 medium runs and 3 shorter runs. Here's some MAF runs right from my log listed in mile-pace/avg HR.

Week 3 of MAF
1.- 11:59 136
2.- 11:18 142
3.- 11:23 142
4.- 11:26 141
5.- 11:31 142
6.- 5:41 141 (half mile)

Week 6 of MAF
1.- 11:27 139
2.- 11:39 141
3.- 11:37 141
4.- 11:03 142
5.- 11:20 141

Week 9 of MAF(week 8 included 2 faster runs out of frustration)
1.- 11:21 138
2.- 12:10 142
3.- 11:39 142
4.- 11:33 142
5.- 11:29 141
6.- 11:40 142
7.- 11:18 142

Week 11 of MAF(Might still be sick. Resting HR back to normal)

1.- 12:31 141
2.- 13:20 143
3.- 11:50 142
4.- 11:58 142

Jusy getting over being sick so week 11 looks sketchy. All these runs were done on a measured flat 400m running track.

Last week I upped my BPM by 5 over a 10 mile run. This was on the road.
1.- 11:37 139
2.- 10:48 144
3.- 10:36 147
4.- 10:16 147
5.- 10:08 147
6.- 10:30 148
7.- 10:24 147
8.- 10:23 147
9.- 10:25 147
10.-10:26 148

This run was 1:45:00 min long.Note the pace difference just from 5 bpm. My longer runs always look like this with the negative splits. Even at the lower HR.

What if anything do you make of this? I'm going to stick to my MAF Hr's till I get to 50 mpw. Than I think I'll crank it up a bit and see how it goes. I just don't understand why I haven't made progress at these low HR's.

Thanks

posted Mar-07-2006 08:33 AM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by d3finition:
kinda confused by aerobic volume. isnt aerobic volume just milage ran at the maf hr? so just run at my maf hr and constantly increase milage bit by bit and eventually i will be able to run faster while still increasing my milage and mantaining the same maf hr?

---

just run all your miles easy (below maf) and your pace will improve. this is not the same as adding faster running (speedwork) while increasing mileage.your pace shouldn't improve beyond your ability to handle it.

on your other post: ice and make sure you have the right shoes. a little soreness is normal for a new runner. your body isn't used to it. it should go away shortly. if it really persists then there is a problem you should correct.

--jm
 

posted Mar-07-2006 10:59 AM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by kelmarker (way back on Dec 8!):
Hi msteed! That is cool that we are on the same time frame. I actually was considering Salt Lake when it was in April, but when they changed it to the same day as the Newport (OR) marathon, I had to go with Newport. The reason is that I ran Newport this past June for my first marathon, and it did not go as planned. (5:11) I am happy I finished, but I am ready to redeem my time! My husband's family is in Utah which is why I was looking at Salt Lake. Do you live there? How are you liking the heart rate training? What monitor do you use? Sorry so many questions!

---

Hey Kelly, I was perusing this monster thread and found your reply. I hope your training is going well. Signs are pointing to a 4:10 marathon for me, although I'd love to break 4:00.

I do live in UT, and love it! After 380 miles of MAF training I am seeing signs of progress. My pace at MAF has improved from ~11:00 to ~10:00. I am within 40 sec/mi of my old long run training pace, but my HR is now 16-18 bpm lower, and I feel like I can go forever.

I use a Garmin 301. The HRM works well enough if I use buh-bump and wash the sensors every two weeks or so.

Mike
 

posted Mar-07-2006 10:59 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by runawayjesse:

In my 11 weeks my mileage has went from 25 to 44 mpw. I include 1 long run, 2 medium runs and 3 shorter runs. Here's some MAF runs right from my log listed in mile-pace/avg HR.

Week 3 of MAF
1.- 11:59 136
2.- 11:18 142
3.- 11:23 142
4.- 11:26 141
5.- 11:31 142
6.- 5:41 141 (half mile)

Week 6 of MAF
1.- 11:27 139
2.- 11:39 141
3.- 11:37 141
4.- 11:03 142
5.- 11:20 141

Week 9 of MAF(week 8 included 2 faster runs out of frustration)
1.- 11:21 138
2.- 12:10 142
3.- 11:39 142
4.- 11:33 142
5.- 11:29 141
6.- 11:40 142
7.- 11:18 142

Week 11 of MAF(Might still be sick. Resting HR back to normal)

1.- 12:31 141
2.- 13:20 143
3.- 11:50 142
4.- 11:58 142

Jusy getting over being sick so week 11 looks sketchy. All these runs were done on a measured flat 400m running track.

Last week I upped my BPM by 5 over a 10 mile run. This was on the road.
1.- 11:37 139
2.- 10:48 144
3.- 10:36 147
4.- 10:16 147
5.- 10:08 147
6.- 10:30 148
7.- 10:24 147
8.- 10:23 147
9.- 10:25 147
10.-10:26 148

This run was 1:45:00 min long.Note the pace difference just from 5 bpm. My longer runs always look like this with the negative splits. Even at the lower HR.

What if anything do you make of this? I'm going to stick to my MAF Hr's till I get to 50 mpw. Than I think I'll crank it up a bit and see how it goes. I just don't understand why I haven't made progress at these low HR's.

Thanks

---

A few questions:

What is your MAF, and how did you figure it?

Do you take recovery weeks?

Some variables will apply when doing your MAF outdoors such as wind, temperature and humidity. Still, you should be seeing some improvement on some of your runs.

--Jimmy

My Running World
My Maffetone Low-HR Training Experiment

posted Mar-07-2006 11:20 AM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
A few questions:

What is your MAF, and how did you figure it?

Do you take recovery weeks?

Some variables will apply when doing your MAF outdoors such as wind, temperature and humidity. Still, you should be seeing some improvement on some of your runs.

--Jimmy

My Running World
My Maffetone Low-HR Training Experiment

---

My Maf is 144. I am 26 yrs old. I subtract 10 for the fact I have allergies and am on 3 mediactions for my allergies and asthma.

Every 4'th week I take a recovery week. I cut my miles by 30-50%.

I have seen what I thought to be improvement on some of my runs but for the most part my paces are as described above.

 

posted Mar-07-2006 12:12 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by runawayjesse:

My Maf is 144. I am 26 yrs old. I subtract 10 for the fact I have allergies and am on 3 mediactions for my allergies and asthma.

Every 4'th week I take a recovery week. I cut my miles by 30-50%.

I have seen what I thought to be improvement on some of my runs but for the most part my paces are as described above.

---

Do you really need to take the 10bpm hit for allergies? While a pain in the a$$ they aren't an indication of your fitness. I assumed illness and injury related to things that might negatively impact your actual fitness. Even your asthma shouldn't be an issue if it is controlled.. They only thing I can think of at this point is if the medication results in an elevated HR or other abnormal response in your cardiovascular system. Does Maffetone really say take 10 for allergies/asthma?

Bump up 5 and hold there for awhile to see if you get any more gains. Although, you should still be making gains at 144. I'm at a loss as to why you've had no noticeable, sustained improvement in 11 weeks+.

I'll keep thinking on it. The negative cases are as interesting as the positive ones.

--jm

 

posted Mar-07-2006 02:38 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
Your MAF is 147. If I were you, and I'm not (but I do play you in my independent movies), I would get up to 130 average by mile 2-3, hold your pace and let your HR get up into the 142-147 zone by the end of your run, slowing down if you have to, or speeding up.

Also, a long run every two weeks or so will do your progress wonders.

Keep going!

--Jimmy

My Running World
My Maffetone Low-HR Training Experiment

---

posted Mar-07-2006 03:05 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by junkmiles:

Do you really need to take the 10bpm hit for allergies? While a pain in the a$$ they aren't an indication of your fitness. I assumed illness and injury related to things that might negatively impact your actual fitness. Even your asthma shouldn't be an issue if it is controlled.. They only thing I can think of at this point is if the medication results in an elevated HR or other abnormal response in your cardiovascular system. Does Maffetone really say take 10 for allergies/asthma?

--jm

---

I don't subtract anything for my allergies or asthma, but I do generally
target MAF-5.

------------------
MyRunningLog

MyStuff

Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
 

posted Mar-07-2006 07:24 PM         

Day 1: 34:32 10:24
Day 16: 36:14 10:55
Day22: 35:59 10:51
Day 43: 35:56 10:49
Day 62: 35:00 10:32

I am hoping to decrease my pace to @ 8 minutes at MAF. Does this seem reasonable for a guy who used to run a 20 minute 5K but who is/will only train 30-40 mpw? Just curious.

posted Mar-07-2006 09:42 PM            

I do notice that Loratadine for allergies raises my HR by a predictable 10 bpm.

I had plateaued for about 10 weeks at 15 mpm (treadmill, 0%) at MAF after gaining ground for a while. I decided to work on some speed (relative term here) and then return to MAF this summer for a 12 week session as the temperature gets higher here in GA.

What I have noticed in running at faster paces of 9-13 mpm is that after training at MAF for about 25 weeks:
- I dropped from almost 20+ mpm (yes - I was that slow) to about 15 mpm at MAF.
- When running at higher HR over the past month or so, I can do so much more comfortably. Last night I ran a quarter-mile hill at the end of a 7 mi run and, although my HR was at 189 for a bit at the top, I was fine; breathing ok and relatively comfortable. Earlier in the run - maybe mi 3 or 4 - I ran a half mi hill where my HR ended in the around 170 and I barely felt it.
- I can hold 165 bpm for 15 mi pretty comfortably now where, when I began MAF, whenever I got up to 165, I was breathless. So running slowly still allowed me to improve.

So even when there is no progression at MAF pace, there was still quite a bit of less-visible improvement occuring.

Running now at the higher HR, I have been able to increase my leg strength quite a bit and am feeling much stronger. I believe that over the past 10 years of no running (injuries) my aerobic capability and muscle strength deteriorated significantly. With a few months spent building leg strength and some traditional LT work, I will see more benefit when I return to MAF this summer. This is also giving me a chance to feel like a runner again for a while. I believe that my plateau was due to the fact that I need a lot of internal system work in addition to possibly running too slow at MAF. I expect that the improvement would have occured - just very slowly.

I am still a strong believer in this approach and have several of Maf's books in my running library. I look forward to returning to it this summer.

 

posted Mar-08-2006 12:40 AM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by junkmiles:

Do you really need to take the 10bpm hit for allergies? While a pain in the a$$ they aren't an indication of your fitness. I assumed illness and injury related to things that might negatively impact your actual fitness. Even your asthma shouldn't be an issue if it is controlled.. They only thing I can think of at this point is if the medication results in an elevated HR or other abnormal response in your cardiovascular system. Does Maffetone really say take 10 for allergies/asthma?

Bump up 5 and hold there for awhile to see if you get any more gains. Although, you should still be making gains at 144. I'm at a loss as to why you've had no noticeable, sustained improvement in 11 weeks+.

I'll keep thinking on it. The negative cases are as interesting as the positive ones.

--jm

---

If you have not exercised before, you have exercised but have been injured or are regressing in your running, or you often get colds or flu or have allergies, subtract 5.

I have allergies so -5.

If you have or are recovering from a major illness (heart disease, any operation, any hospital stay) or on any regular medication, subtract 10.

I am on 3 medication's regularly -10

If you have been exercising for more than two years without any problems, making progress in competition without injury, add 5

I have been running for 1.5 yrs with only 1 minor injury. I have a 5k time of 22:07 which for me is good. When I started running I couldn't even run 1/4 mile. 3 miles walking was hard. So I like to think that I really shaped up. For this I added 5. That puts me at 180-26(my age)-10-5+5=MAF 144.

My asthma is under control but my allergies is another story. I am allergic to dust mites and I work in a warehouse. I've been on all different kinda of meds. Sometimes I'll be ok for awhile but my allergies usually always bother me. My resting Hr is all over the place. Yesterday it was 58, today it was 73. Around week 5 of MAF I had a good week where my resting HR was stable at 62-65bpm every morning and my paces seemed to be better that week too. I thought I was on the right track. Than week 6 it was back to my wacky resting hr's and slow paces. Sometimes even though I have a low resting HR just standing up will sky rocket it to 110. On other days to hit 110 I have to work at it a bit.

I dunno, maybe I have a friged up system

posted Mar-08-2006 08:49 AM            

Have you tried SINGULAIR for your allergies/asthma? It is not a potent drug but when it works for you, IT WORKS BIG TIME - miracle-like. Generally, 1/3 of population notice no relief, 1/3 notice some relief, 1/3 notice great relief. I take it and have gotten excellent results for asthma and good results for allergies. I generally only need to take an over the counter allergy medicine a couple time per year. I too am allergic to dust mites, mold, and anything green outside. If not, ask your doctor for 2-3 wks worth of samples.

------------------
My Profile
 

posted Mar-08-2006 10:46 AM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tchuck:
runawayjesse,

Have you tried SINGULAIR for your allergies/asthma? It is not a potent drug but when it works for you, IT WORKS BIG TIME - miracle-like. Generally, 1/3 of population notice no relief, 1/3 notice some relief, 1/3 notice great relief. I take it and have gotten excellent results for asthma and good results for allergies. I generally only need to take an over the counter allergy medicine a couple time per year. I too am allergic to dust mites, mold, and anything green outside. If not, ask your doctor for 2-3 wks worth of samples.

---

Thanks Tchuck. That's one I haven't been on before. I"ll talk to my doctor.