posted Mar-02-2006 08:58 AM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by run2live99:
I haven't read everything on this thread yet but, from what I have read, I think I might be ready for a change!

I posted a few weeks ago and it was suggested that if I need to walk to hold MAF...I need to walk!

Running between MAF-2 and MAF+5 for about 8 weeks...average mileage around 25 mi/wk (and I still hate it!).

Did my first MAF test on the treadmill tonight...

Mile 1 MAF+2 12:12
Mile 2 MAF+2 12:17
Mile 3 MAF+3 12:17
Mile 4 MAF+2 12:15
Mile 5 MAF+3 12:13

I also ran ran an out and back (at around MAF+5) and tracked HR/Pace (as was posted by "junkmiles" in this thread last week) for a 7.5 mile run on Sunday...HR/Pace increase was less than 1% on the return leg.

Does this HR stability suggest I am not going to get any better?!?! Or does it just mean it is time to mix in some faster work. I am still walking up some of the steeper hills on my route(s).

Thanks for your insight

dc

---

Since Jesse and Jimmy addressed the "why are you doing this?" issue I won't bother. I will ask - why are you using MAF+5 as your guideline, with your history of injury and performance decline, the program would recommend not taking the +5 and being a bit more strict. In practice, I don't know that it matters for some folk. However, I do think you, at least, need to know the "why" of each training run and in your case, why you took the +5 is not clear.

On the cardiac drift measurement you used: That does not mean you are done. You, and everyone else on this thread, are trying to build aerobic fitness by working at MAF which is well below their AT (or maximum aerobic heart rate, which is not to be confused with your MAF HR). When working well below your AT the stability test will indicate progress at the HR you are currently working at. If you were working just below your AT (i.e. your absolute maximum aerobic effort), then keeping cardiac drift within 1% on a 2hour run would be a good indicator to move on and start adding speedwork. However, you are working far below (I presume) your AT and this test really indicates progress, but not maximum aerobic fitness.

I'd say you still have a ways to go since your pace at MAF is pretty slow relative to your 1/2 marathon times. If you are going to stick with MAF training I'd recommend giving it at least another 4 weeks and preferably 8 weeks. As long as that won't interfere with any racing plans you have in the spring.

good luck.

--jm

posted Mar-02-2006 09:05 AM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
I'm not sure I understand your 1% rise in HR/pace. What went up by 1%? Heart rate or pace? What do you mean by stability?

--Jimmy

---

Jimmy,

"Stability" as referred to by the poster is a reference to a HR vs. pace computation I put up a couple weeks ago. Basically, it is an indication of cardiac drift and has (for me) been a good indicator of impending pace improvements. That is, I notice improved HR stability (i.e. less cardiac drift) on my 90min (or greater) runs before my pace drops significantly (>15s/mile). The calculation I posted is a way to measure cardiac drift. I guess it would be analogous to the "% decay" figure you use on your MAF tests. You are measuring slowing down vs. constant HR. The formula I used (I got it from Joe Friel triathlon coach), normalizes things since pace may be constant and HR may rise. However, since both may change, it accounts for that as well. It's particularly useful for folks who train or MAF test on a treadmill, since pace gains don't occur naturally. It is generally only useful on runs lasting more than 1hr, with 1.5-2h being a very good measure of progress. I also thought it was useful for folks who were frustrated by going weeks without a noticeable pace improvement; this gave an alternative measure for them to see (or not) any progress they were making.

[ AvgPace(2)/AvgHR(2) - AvgPace(1)/AvgHR(1) ] / [
AvgPace(1)/AvgHR(1) ]

where (1) & (2) refer to the first and second halves of the run in question. That is, take avg pace and HR for each half of the run and plug into the formula above (take the difference and then divide that result by the ratio of the first half). Less than 1% indicates little cardiac drift, which is an indicator of improved aerobic fitness.

--jm
 

posted Mar-02-2006 09:33 AM            

thanks in advance
 

posted Mar-02-2006 09:41 AM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by d3finition:
hmmm can i have to link to the faq for this as to how far to run/how long to run (per training) and for how many months? i am aiming to train up for a 10k race (just to get the milage up now and get my base up). i can currently run the 2.4km run in 11:40 at a fast pace for me and i do 4k runs 3 times a week.

thanks in advance

---

just check out one of leitnerj's posts on the previous page. He has a link to the faq at the bottom of his posts.

general recommendation is 12 weeks or longer assuming you continue to make progress. In any case, a minimum of 6 weeks is usually the benchmark for ANY training regimen to show marked improvement.

--jm
 

posted Mar-02-2006 10:04 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by d3finition:
hmmm can i have to link to the faq for this as to how far to run/how long to run (per training) and for how many months? i am aiming to train up for a 10k race (just to get the milage up now and get my base up). i can currently run the 2.4km run in 11:40 at a fast pace for me and i do 4k runs 3 times a week.

thanks in advance

---

So you run about 12k per week. 11:40 is a fast pace.

There is nothing in the book that says how long or how far. I run 5-6 days per week, and ran 52 miles (83k) last week. I'll top out over 70 miles (112k). Other people just run 3-4 days and 25 miles per week (40k).

He probably figures that most people understand that the more miles/kilometers you run, the faster you will progress. In order to build your endurance, you need to give your body something to endure. I suggest that you start to build your distance up a bit. You should try to build up to at least one run per week of 10-13k. Build that run by 5-10% per week. 4 k, 4.2-4.4 K the next, etc.

You can also work on building total mileage per week by 5%. 12 k this week, and 12.6 the next, etc.

Slowly, but surely, build up a bit. Oh, yeah, you might have to walk to keep under your MAF.

--Jimmy

My Running World
My Maffetone Low-HR Training Experiment

[This message has been edited by jjwaverly42 (edited Mar-02-2006).]
 

posted Mar-02-2006 11:14 AM         

Reading your posts refering to "stability" factor, brings some questions to mind.

I have been running at my MAF HR for 10 weeks now(going on 11). My pace improved ever so slightly(just within the last 2 weeks)by 10-20 sec mile. Not enough improvement for me. I'm still very slow. Right from day one with this pace my HR vs. pace was stable on runs lasting longer than 1 hr. Last weeks long run was my first run lasting longer than 2 hr's and still no drift. In fact, most of my runs end in negative splits.

Here's my question. Do you think I have got the most out of this particular zone? Right now I don't want to even come close to anaerobic running but I'm thinking maybe I should pick it up just a tad. My thought was this- Find my HR zone where I don't have that stability anymore and work that zone till I do. Problem with this approach for me is whenever I think about running faster, I'm afraid of flirting with anaerobic HR's and cancelling out any aerobic progress.

As always your thoughts will be appreciated.
 

posted Mar-02-2006 12:49 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by runawayjesse:
Junkmiles,

Reading your posts refering to "stability" factor, brings some questions to mind.

I have been running at my MAF HR for 10 weeks now(going on 11). My pace improved ever so slightly(just within the last 2 weeks)by 10-20 sec mile. Not enough improvement for me. I'm still very slow. Right from day one with this pace my HR vs. pace was stable on runs lasting longer than 1 hr. Last weeks long run was my first run lasting longer than 2 hr's and still no drift. In fact, most of my runs end in negative splits.

Here's my question. Do you think I have got the most out of this particular zone? Right now I don't want to even come close to anaerobic running but I'm thinking maybe I should pick it up just a tad. My thought was this- Find my HR zone where I don't have that stability anymore and work that zone till I do. Problem with this approach for me is whenever I think about running faster, I'm afraid of flirting with anaerobic HR's and cancelling out any aerobic progress.

As always your thoughts will be appreciated.

---

Not sure I have a specific recommendation as I'm making this stuff up as I go along. Seriously, 10-20sec may be a bit less than you should expect after 10weeks. Any gain is good, but I can totally sympathize with the "it's still too slow" thought process. I am in a similar situation. First 3-4 weeks so decent improvement (~2min gain), then it slowly, but steadily dropped 15-20s every couple of weeks. It flattened out for the last couple of weeks and actually regressed a bit at the end of last week. I knew I was ready for a minibreak. I threw in a cutback week and after 1 recovery run and 1 day off the pace dropped another 15s or so. Now I'm taking off about 1 week to get rid of an achilles problem that cropped up when I banged my heel a week ago. It sucks, but I want to be aggressive about it since I have a big build up planned through the summer for a fall marathon.

I don't know about your schedule, but maybe you could benefit from a cutback or a day or two off. Also, is there enough variation in your day to day running? If all your days are roughly the same, then you might not be getting enough variation in stress to improve faster. Also, as Jimmy likes to always say, "you need to have something to endure." So maybe you should start stretching your long run (use time, not mileage 5-15 min a week for the next 2-3 weeks), if you're not there take it up to 2.5hrs and eventually 3h if you can afford the time. Those long runs will really provide an environment for improvement.

On bumping up the HR: I don't recall how long you've been running, but I think it has been more than 1 year. If so, and if you haven't already taken it, then the 5beat bump mark allen/Maffetone allowsmay be in order (although Maffetone says 2 years of steady progress, Allen says 1). Not on every run, but maybe throw in a few 1-5 min surges in your normal runs up to, but not exceeding MAF+5. That should keep you comfortably aerobic, but provide a little more training stress. You'll probably see your HR at MAF+5 go out of range the longer you run at that pace, but start out at 1min and then those surges will expand to where you stay under for longer. Do it as a fartlek, nothing really structured and just give yourself at least 2-3min in between to let the HR recover to subMAF. Try that for a 1 or 2 runs a week and see how you feel and if it has any impact on your progress. Do a MAF test @ MAF (not MAF+5) in 3 or 4 weeks and see how you do. Even simpler would be to do the following: in a run of an hour or more, in the last 15-20min or so do 1min @ MAF+5 and 1 min @MAF until the run is over. I suspect there will be anywhere from a 30s-1min difference in those paces, but it should be enough to provide some additional training stress. As long as you use MAF+5 as a strict guide, you should avoid the temptation to go even faster.

I played around with some faster stuff a few weeks ago, mostly 20-30s surges or strides (well over MAF), but not long enough to do any damage. It got me used to moving faster biomechanically and got me ready to run a maxHR test, which I ended up doing at about 6min pace on hills. Not sure it had any real training impact other than form/economy. Mentally it was great and it felt nice to go that fast and sustain it for a few minutes. My runs usually average at MAF-5 with steady state sections falling into MAF-2 or 3. I've thrown in a couple of MAF+5 surges here and there and I've actually seen my HR drop back into subMAF range as I stabilized at the corresponding pace.

Hope that helps.

--jm

[This message has been edited by junkmiles (edited Mar-02-2006).]
 

posted Mar-02-2006 06:57 PM         

I do mix up my runs between longer and shorter runs with 1 mid week longish run and a weekend long run. You make an interesting point that I did not take into consideration. Lately, I have been ramping up my miles(not to fast but their getting up their) and have been feeling really tired. Dead legs, soar muscles, and my resting HR has risen by 30 bpm(I'm not sick). Now, just today after I wrote my first post, I went out and did my thursday 7 miler and my pace was 2 m/m slower than my usuall pace just to hold HR under MAF. I could barley lift my legs. I have a recovery week scheduled for next week but I was kinda hoping I could just white knuckle the rest of this week. I didn't think that this exhaustion would cause my pace to suffer, till today that is.

I have been running at 180-age-10 as my MAF pace. After filling out Maffetone's questionnaire honestly that is what I should be running at. Sense that equates to 71% of my max heart rate I figured it was a reasonable number.

One last thought. On week 8 of my low HR training schedule I got frustrated and threw in a faster run(we spoke during this time) of my MAF HR + 25-30 bpm(85-88%MHR).I ran in this zone for a 5 mile run and still had a stable pace vs HR. The pace was 2:30 m/m faster too. I'm not sure what this means but looking around on the forums it seems that people always have this degrade in pace.

Maybe I should just take a couple days off, up my zone by 5 bpm and stop stressing the whole thing.

posted Mar-02-2006 09:10 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by runawayjesse:

Maybe I should just take a couple days off, up my zone by 5 bpm and stop stressing the whole thing.

---

Sounds like a plan. You've got plenty of room to bump things up 5 beats. I'd say MAF-10 is pretty conservative, even with a history of injury or recent illness, so you should have some room. Don't sweat the fast run; one fast run isn't going to mess anything up. Like I said, I did a maxHR test a few weeks ago and I know it didn't mess up my base building effort. In fact, I had some respectable progress in the 2 weeks after that test. The problems arise when you do it every week, not once within 10 weeks program.

--jm

p.s. finally mapped out a Lydiard-type schedule to finish up the next 8-12 weeks of lowHR running. I'll carry this schedule into my formal conditioning phase sometime in May or June depending on how the pace is progressing in the lowHR phase. I've also been scouting hilly routes and trying to work out some hill loops to use during the Hill Phase. Now if I can just get my heel to cooperate!!

 

posted Mar-03-2006 01:50 AM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by junkmiles:
Sounds like a plan. You've got plenty of room to bump things up 5 beats. I'd say MAF-10 is pretty conservative, even with a history of injury or recent illness, so you should have some room. Don't sweat the fast run; one fast run isn't going to mess anything up. Like I said, I did a maxHR test a few weeks ago and I know it didn't mess up my base building effort. In fact, I had some respectable progress in the 2 weeks after that test. The problems arise when you do it every week, not once within 10 weeks program.

--jm

p.s. finally mapped out a Lydiard-type schedule to finish up the next 8-12 weeks of lowHR running. I'll carry this schedule into my formal conditioning phase sometime in May or June depending on how the pace is progressing in the lowHR phase. I've also been scouting hilly routes and trying to work out some hill loops to use during the Hill Phase. Now if I can just get my heel to cooperate!!

---

Glad to here you set out your Lydiard plan. I too am finishing mine up. I am so looking forward to hitting peak mileage and starting my conditioning phase. Not sure of what effort's I will run yet but I do know it they will deffiently be higher than MAF HR's ;0. I have been reading more of his books. Just recently got his 68 book "run to the top" WOW what a good book. I too got some great hill circuits worked out just like the ones "Nobby" explains. Nobby has a video coming out available on his web site http://www.fivecircles.org/ that show and explain Lydiard's hill training. Nobby is a great guy. He worked with Lydiard. He answered many questions I had in regards to the Lydiard system(through email) and this helped me set out my plan. He also emailed me some text with graphes that show proper hill training. If your interested give me your email and I'll send it to you.

I sure hope your achilles gets better.

(Sorry everyone, this post was so off topic)

posted Mar-03-2006 07:39 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by runawayjesse:
Glad to here you set out your Lydiard plan....t but I do know it they will deffiently be higher than MAF HR's ;0.......

(Sorry everyone, this post was so off topic)

---

Just as long as you mention "MAF", you're okay.

Now let me tell you the story of a woman who left her husband for an astronaut she met in the Berkshires. She had spent her life washing her husband's clothes, making him breakfast, and keeping his MAF data after his runs. Now, the day she decided to drive to the Berkshires...

--Jimmy

My Running World
My Maffetone Low-HR Training Experiment

posted Mar-03-2006 08:27 AM            

Date.....miles...time....Max Ave. HR......temp/humidity
1/27/06...5......11:01......137.................64º/33%
3/02/06...5......10:18......137................ 66º/69%

progress: 43 seconds
Days between runs=34 (4.86 weeks)
Miles between runs=207 miles
Ave weekly mileage: 41 (top weekly mileage 52, lowest 33)
Ave weekly progress=8.85 seconds

I have mentioned before that when I used a two-zone aerobic HR approach (65-70% MHR, and 65-75% MHR) in the past, I saw aprox 1 minute of progress in training paces aprox every 240 miles. I'm seeing similar results with this program.

--Jimmy

My Running World
My Maffetone Low-HR Training Experiment

[This message has been edited by jjwaverly42 (edited Mar-03-2006).]
 

posted Mar-03-2006 09:41 AM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by d3finition:
thanks a million guys

---

I second what d3 said, thank you all for an outstanding thread. I've been lurking and following this thread for months, and I've picked up a ton of real-world useful info. It's also prodded me to some productive reading and thinking about base training.

Junkmiles, runawayjesse: I'm curious about the Lydiard based schedules you came up with. Are they in an easily post-able format, and if so, would you consider posting them here?

Thanks again folks.

posted Mar-03-2006 11:31 AM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by fuzz:
I second what d3 said, thank you all for an outstanding thread. I've been lurking and following this thread for months, and I've picked up a ton of real-world useful info. It's also prodded me to some productive reading and thinking about base training.

Junkmiles, runawayjesse: I'm curious about the Lydiard based schedules you came up with. Are they in an easily post-able format, and if so, would you consider posting them here?

Thanks again folks.

---

I'm finishing up mine. Writing out the last phase now. I used his books, online recources, and spoke to some diciples to come up with something. It wasn't easy. I am rather type "A" so within my plan I include lots of notes and specifics that I would rather not post on here. But if you drop me your email I will send it to you. Just keep in mind, that my plan is geared toward the 5k-10k races so it is different than what a marathon schedule should look like. Check out this guy's blog- http://championseverywhere.blogspot.com/ . Click on "my training log". Although I would have done it a little different he put together a nice marathonj schedule schedule.

(Again sorry everyone for going off topic. It won't happen again)

posted Mar-03-2006 05:36 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by fuzz:
I second what d3 said, thank you all for an outstanding thread. I've been lurking and following this thread for months, and I've picked up a ton of real-world useful info. It's also prodded me to some productive reading and thinking about base training.

Junkmiles, runawayjesse: I'm curious about the Lydiard based schedules you came up with. Are they in an easily post-able format, and if so, would you consider posting them here?

Thanks again folks.

---

I'll post mine on the thread "Interested in Lydiard", which should bump it back up from the basement. Oh yeah, MAF MAF MAF MAF.

sorry folks

posted Mar-03-2006 10:17 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
I'm finally starting to get some data on a particular benchmark 5-miler. I'm using this distance for now to measure progress, as my medium long &long runs have varied in distance since the beginning of this training in January. ... At this point, I feel comfortable using my 5 milers as measure of progress, as I have been doing these continuously since late January without walkbreaks.

---

I too use a certain run (outside) to gauge my progress. I started in October and have seen good improvements. The more my weekly mileage has increased and/or the individual "long run", the better my time gets on this.

This my progress (6.1 miler):
Oct 15 2005: 10:40
Dec 21 2005: 10:13
Jan 17 2006: 9:51 * introduced runs over 10 miles
Feb 14 2006: 8:56

Need to catch up this thread. Been out of it for a couple of weeks.

Good luck with your pogress.

------------------
About Me ~~~ My Log ~~~FitDay Log~~~Find a Race

[This message has been edited by hurryinhoosier (edited Mar-03-2006).]
 

posted Mar-04-2006 06:23 AM            

Hi Dad! I'm in the 10's!

Hey, baby, I'm in the 10's. I know, you can't stand your desire for me. Oh, I'm sorry, I meant my paces were in the 10's. Still want me? Don't laugh. Stop laughing. I can't help it, I was born this way.

Ten, ten, ten , ten.

"Give me 10's, or give me lactate"...Nathan Hale when training for a colonial version of the Boston Marathon called "They Can Stick Their Chips Up Their Arses 10k."

--Jimmy

My Running World
My Maffetone Low-HR Training Experiment

posted Mar-04-2006 06:29 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by hurryinhoosier:
I too use a certain run (outside) to gauge my progress. I started in October and have seen good improvements. The more my weekly mileage has increased and/or the individual "long run", the better my time gets on this.

This my progress (6.1 miler):
Oct 15 2005: 10:40
Dec 21 2005: 10:13
Jan 17 2006: 9:51 * introduced runs over 10 miles
Feb 14 2006: 8:56

Need to catch up this thread. Been out of it for a couple of weeks.

Good luck with your pogress.

---

Awesome progress. I concur that building mileage, even just a little, especially that one long run every week or two (two if you're up over 17 miles), makes all the difference.

Way to stick with it.

--Jimmy

My Running World
My Maffetone Low-HR Training Experiment

posted Mar-04-2006 10:06 AM            

1. yay! I did one of my miles faster than 12 min/mi on the
treadmill.
2. yay! I averaged faster than 12 min/mi on the treadmill!
3. yay! I'm now running 11 min/mi outside on the hills!
4. ...
...
n. yay! I've surpassed 7:30/mi for a couple of miles on
the treadmill.
n+1. yay! My average pace on a 20 mile hilly run hit 8:45/mile!
...
n+k. yay! I just hit a 2 hour 50 mile race PR after less than
5 months of training!
n+k+1. yay! I just hit a 30 minute marathon PR after less
than 5 months of training!

And now, just getting into the new race season, I'm back at it again,
but progress is a little bit faster this time (and, by the way, it's just
as painful as it always has been to go through all of those initial
slow miles and I question whether it's working the whole time along
the way, just like everyone else). I just did a little bit of graphing in
my coolrunning log and noticed my average weekly pace for treadmill
runs for the year has moved steadily from 9:54/mile to 8:25/mile.
The treadmill runs are basically my MAF tests.

I ran a nice easy pace 20 miler today with a friend and tomorrow will
be my second marathon of the year.

------------------
MyRunningLog

MyStuff

Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
 

posted Mar-04-2006 10:35 AM            

------------------
Clay
 

posted Mar-04-2006 10:57 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by fredurie:
Saturday
AM 15 @ around 6:55, HR 112, tired, indoor track, age 58.

---

For you, MAF running means running faster than you naturally
go out for a pleasant run. Ah, we all wish we were there! My
new goal will be to reach a point where I have to really push hard
to get up to MAF heart rate. Give me 5-10 years and I'll get back
to you! I've just reached the point where I can do something that
I call "running" at MAF-20 beats.

------------------
MyRunningLog

MyStuff

Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
 

posted Mar-04-2006 11:05 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by crb81:
Ran my first 5k today since my PR of 20:32 last November. That was during a period of 35-40 miles/week. Had to cut way back in mid-December due to PF. Started low Hr in late January and worked up to 25 miles last week and this week. Was curious as to what kind of speed I would have today. This was by far the most difficult course I have run. Very hilly! The PR was on a relatively flat course. I was pleasantly surprised with a 21:15. This is after 5 weeks below HR 133. I hit 194 on the last hill and ran most of course in the 180's. Hope it doesn't mess up the training but I had to see how I would do.

---

not bad at all after 5 weeks of exclusively low training. That's enough
time to ditch a good bit of your anaerobic capability, but hardly enough
to establish a strong aerobic base. If you don't do it every week, it's
not going to mess anything up. I think you'll see good results ahead.

------------------
MyRunningLog

MyStuff

Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
 

posted Mar-04-2006 03:30 PM            

thanks,
It really fired me up to get back out there and run low HR. I'm going to run a 5 or 10 k monthly. Can't wait for next MAF run in 10 days.

------------------
Clay