posted Feb-03-2006 03:17 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cashmason:
I was like Karen, about 6 weeks before times started to come down, and still not as fast as I used to be, but heart rate is about 30 beats per minute slower.

Maf is easy on the legs but brutal on the ego.

Btw thats 6 weeks at 30-45 miles per week. Somebody posted it took them about 250 miles at Maf to see results. If you are doing 10 miles a week, it may take a lot longer. I don't remember how far you are running.

---

My mileage is exactly like yours. I am averaging 40 mpw.

I should also mention that I was hopeful that my long run today would not be at 12 min/miles. I think I was doomed from the start. I got to bed later than I planned last night. Woke up to the alarm and was scrambling to get my kids out the door for school. My HR was hitting the 90's during the AM craziness. It would normally be in the 65-75 range during this time. I even sat in my car and tried to relax for about 15 minutes before starting my run, to no avail. My HR crept up rather quickly. I ended up doing 18 miles at an average pace of 11:32. It took FOREVER

The HR and Pace sure does change from day to day. Perhaps I am still not quite recovered from the cold of last week.
Karen
 

posted Feb-03-2006 07:15 PM            

In either case, for a few days, I saw my RHR was elevated, eventually
by 30 beats (before I started to feel sick), my pace slowed by about
2 min/mile at MAF and everything stayed basically like that until about
3 days after I felt that the cold was gone.

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posted Feb-03-2006 10:51 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by lynnn:
Hi there,

I've decided to give HR training a try, after my disasterous first marathon 2 mths ago. I'm a little underage according to mr Leitnerj's FAQ! I'm 23 yrs old and my PBs are 1:51 (half marathon) and 48:30 (10k). Unfortunately, I'm feeling a bit unsure about the whole training process. Using Maffetone's formula, my HR should be under 157bpm. In my first two runs using the HR moniter, I slowed down slightly from my usual LR pace to accommodate this, but currently I find that I actually have to up the pace to maintain around 153bpm. Isn't this rather strange? I keep reading about how people have to make an effort to slow down and I was bracing myself for this when quite the opposite happens!
I have been slacking off training quite a bit since my 4:40s marathon so I assumed the best way was to start buliding my aerobic base before attempting any other race. I just did an 11 mile run in very hot weather yesterday and managed an average HR of 151 although I think it took me about 3 miles to reach the 150s zone reasonably comfortably (without feeling I was going too fast to finish the run). I wonder if I'm going on the right track? And if I am, it doesn't feel much different to when I was training without the HRM,and I've been having no progress with my times for quite a while now.

---

Hmmm... can I beg for some replies? haha.. I'm truly a bit stuck here... wonder if anyone can help me out? My 10mile run (1:34) yesterday was at 143bpm--- waaay under my supposed 157 MAF. It was scorching hot I couldn't really increase my pace further (althought isn't the HR supposed to be elevated in extreme heat??) without wilting. I'd appreciate any help i can get thks..........
 

posted Feb-04-2006 12:50 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by lynnn:
Hmmm... can I beg for some replies? haha.. I'm truly a bit stuck here... wonder if anyone can help me out? My 10mile run (1:34) yesterday was at 143bpm--- waaay under my supposed 157 MAF. It was scorching hot I couldn't really increase my pace further (althought isn't the HR supposed to be elevated in extreme heat??) without wilting. I'd appreciate any help i can get thks..........

---

If your goal is to build your aerobic base, then you are doing just fine, as you are staying under your MAF. Whether it's 143 or 153, they'll both work just fine. If you haven't done one yet, try an MAF test. Then you have a benchmark with which to work and measure your real progress (it's tough to tell sometimes when you're mucking around way under your MAF). You can find it here (called Self-assessment):

http://www.rrca.org/publicat/slowdown.html

Good luck!

--Jimmy

My Running World

[This message has been edited by jjwaverly42 (edited Feb-04-2006).]
 

posted Feb-04-2006 01:42 PM            

12/23 12:15/146. 13:25/147, 14:44/146
01/14 11:38/146, 12:43/147, 13:21/147
02/04 10:24/144, 10:56/145, 11:18/147

I wanted to add a 4th mile this week, but my left knee's been twingy so I thought it best to take it easy. What I'm most encouraged by is the smaller difference between the first mile time and last mile time. I really notice this on my longer runs. My average mpm pace continues to drop every week.

Keep the faith

------------------
Me

My Log
 

posted Feb-04-2006 02:53 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by lynnn:
Hmmm... can I beg for some replies? haha.. I'm truly a bit stuck here... wonder if anyone can help me out? My 10mile run (1:34) yesterday was at 143bpm--- waaay under my supposed 157 MAF. It was scorching hot I couldn't really increase my pace further (althought isn't the HR supposed to be elevated in extreme heat??) without wilting. I'd appreciate any help i can get thks..........

---

Meant to reply to your first message, but got sidetracked by life. Jimmy is essentially correct. However, I'll point out that the MAF formula (180-age), in my opinion, tends to be very skewed for folks under 25. The targetHR tends to be very high relative to other means of identifying your aerobic zone.

My recommendation would be to do a MAF test, but do it at HR 145. Then keep all your easy runs under that HR for the next 6-8weeks. Do another MAF test at the same HR and nearly identical conditions in 6 weeks and see where you are.

I would say that if you are really struggling to push your HR up to meet your MAF target then stop. Back off and just run at a lower HR, where you are conversational and are not straining to maintain a high HR. At this point you will get bigger gains from a lot of moderate pace miles than fewer fast ones. Besides your pace at HR 143 is a lot better than most folks who jump into MAF training.

good luck.

--jm
 

posted Feb-04-2006 04:40 PM         

1. How do you incorporate 'recovery' into your schedule? Since MAF runs tend to be all 'easy', how do you define a recovery run or recovery day?

2. Have you ever felt stale or overtrained doing a lowHR approach? If so, how did you identify it? and how did you break out of it?

3. Anyone doing speedwork while doing LowHR/MAF style training? Speedwork meaning: strides, short intervals, or any other fast running that is alactic, but with HR that is necessarily over the MAF or otherwise defined lowHR target.
If so, did it help, hinder, or have no identifiable impact on your performance?

All responses welcome.

--jm
 

posted Feb-04-2006 05:47 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by junkmiles:
Three compound questions for the LowHR/MAF throng:

1. How do you incorporate 'recovery' into your schedule? Since MAF runs tend to be all 'easy', how do you define a recovery run or recovery day?

2. Have you ever felt stale or overtrained doing a lowHR approach? If so, how did you identify it? and how did you break out of it?

3. Anyone doing speedwork while doing LowHR/MAF style training? Speedwork meaning: strides, short intervals, or any other fast running that is alactic, but with HR that is necessarily over the MAF or otherwise defined lowHR target.
If so, did it help, hinder, or have no identifiable impact on your performance?

All responses welcome.

--jm

---

Recovery for me is either a 5-miler or a rest day. I actually run my 5-milers at a faster pace than my long runs. I pretty much do the same heart rate performance for each run. I also walk on my rest days.

--Jimmy

My Running World

posted Feb-04-2006 06:23 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
Recovery for me is either a 5-miler or a rest day. I actually run my 5-milers at a faster pace than my long runs. I pretty much do the same heart rate performance for each run. I also walk on my rest days.

--Jimmy

My Running World

---

Jimmy,

I asked #1 & #2 to get some other folks perspective on recovery and staleness within the context of lowHR training. Specifically, I asked because over the first 2 of the last 3 weeks I found myself doing all my runs near the top of my zone. They are all physically easy with no strain or negative after effects. The first 2 weeks were flat in terms of progress (no pace gains, no HR drop, nothing). I ended the 2nd week with a 12 miler, that while on pace, just felt crappy. In the third week I enforced strict recovery days targeting a max HR at least 5bpm below the top of my zone and in practice averaging closer to 10bpm lower. Did that every other day this week on my short runs (~45m). On the other days (90-120m) I let the pace and HR go whereever, while staying in range. All runs felt great, lots of energy and basically had a 30s drop in pace over the last 7 days.

I just seemed a little strange that several days of essentially easy running would have that effect; and that even in the context of easy there is still room for 'recovery'.

--jm
 

posted Feb-04-2006 06:29 PM            

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posted Feb-04-2006 06:39 PM         

------------------

Peter - Shoes: New Balance 766NY
Running "Garminless" until my new FR305 arrives
 

posted Feb-04-2006 06:59 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by peterjcb:
I'm a first time poster in this thread. I started MAF about a week ago and I have mixed feeling about it. It's kind of refreshing to run slow and have no pressure to run against the clock but it's kind of humiliating to be running so slow... which is why I like running early in the morning when there's not much activity around.
My weekly mileage base is around 25-30 MPW at present. I'm also getting my long runs up to 10 miles and higher. WIll I need to fuel myself during long runs which could be for 2 hours or more sometimes? I know MAF training recommends not consuming carbs about 3 hours before a run.
Thanks.

---

Hi Peter! Welcome to "the club where few people are happy at first, and some are not happy after 5 weeks." It took me almost not time at all
to get to the point where I needed nothing before or during any length training run and no effects thereof. As long as you don't have medical issues, you can do the same.
While it is recommended that you don't take in carbs before your runs,
apparently there's no detrimental effect of taking them in during your
runs. So, it's up to you. Personally, I was a slave to sugar before and
during runs, so I look at this elimination as one of the key things I've
gotten out of this form of training. Nowadays, I can go on a 20 mile
run, followed by a 50 mile bike ride, without any carbs of any kind before
or during, if I stay below the MAF heart rate. That's not to say that you
shouldn't pick a few runs prior to a marathon where you figure what
works for you (I've already learned this long ago, so I don't worry about
it anymore), but try to eliminate the reliance first. So, in short:
1. barring any medical conditions, you can train yourself, without
much difficulty, to eliminate your reliance on carbs before and
during runs, as long as you are staying under MAF HR.
2. the key thing is to avoid carbs within the 2-3 hours before your
runs.
3. if you prefer to take in carbs during your runs, it's up to you
and it shouldn't interfere with MAF training.

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posted Feb-05-2006 04:03 AM            

http://www.coolrunning.com/forums/Forum6/HTML/018034.shtml

edited for typo.
------------------
Me ~~~ My Log ~~~~~~Find a Race

[This message has been edited by hurryinhoosier (edited Feb-05-2006).]
 

posted Feb-05-2006 06:50 PM         

I the monitor would cut out for a few minutes, give data for a few minutes then cut out again. Rinse repeat all run long.

I got the monitor about months ago and use it pretty frequently. Could the battery be going out? This is a Garmin 301.

I did run under a few power lines and the hr rate would spike from 122 to 224 then cut out. But it did this before and long after I was past the power lines too.

Thanks for any ideas.

Cash.
 

posted Feb-05-2006 07:10 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cashmason:
Quick question. Today during a 10 mile run, my heart rate monitor would cut in and out fairly frequently. I used buh bump type gel and sweating pretty well.

I the monitor would cut out for a few minutes, give data for a few minutes then cut out again. Rinse repeat all run long.

I got the monitor about months ago and use it pretty frequently. Could the battery be going out? This is a Garmin 301.

I did run under a few power lines and the hr rate would spike from 122 to 224 then cut out. But it did this before and long after I was past the power lines too.

Thanks for any ideas.

Cash.

---

Hey Cash, I too have a Forerunner 301. I've only had it for 1.5 weeks and I find this to be a common occurance. I am planning on returning it as soon as the 305 makes it's appearance and hear other's feedback on the newer unit. I understand from others that this is not unusual for the 301. it doesn't have a very good reputation as far as the HRM is concerned. What I did during my last run, after the HRM crapped out for at least 2 miles, was to reset it. Go to the "Settings" menu, then choose "General", then "Set Heart Monitor", then scroll down and "Restart Scan". This did the trick for me. I didn't loose any data and it simply reset itself and was fine for the rest of the run.
I think the 301 is a disappointing unit. It isn't supposed to receive interference from High Tension, etc. due to whatever technology it has. I still have my other HRM and wear both of them. This is NOT what I had in mind when investing in the 301. I wanted to consolidate gadgets, not duplicate.
Good luck, I'd like to know if resetting works for you.
Karen

Edited to add: You may also want to clean the electrodes. I use a foaming soap and an old toothbrush.

[This message has been edited by Ksabbo (edited Feb-05-2006).]
 

posted Feb-05-2006 07:18 PM            

I attribute a lot of the sucess to the dramatic ramping up of mileage that low heart rate training afforded me. While I am not doing 100% low heart rate training now, I just wanted to let folks know that your body will not automatically revert to MAF pace when in a racing environment.

posted Feb-05-2006 07:48 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by sibelius:
Just wanted to assure some folks here that using MAF will not completely degrade your speed (as some of the critics claim). While I have been off MAF for the last week, I spent the prior 8 - 9 weeks doing nothing but easy MAF type running/wogging at around 12 minute miles. I just completed a half marathon this morning running at 1:43:45 - more than a 6 minute PR over my last 1/2M race and at a pace just under 8 minute/mile (7:55) - or about 4 minutes faster than the majority of my runs the last 2+ months.

I attribute a lot of the sucess to the dramatic ramping up of mileage that low heart rate training afforded me. While I am not doing 100% low heart rate training now, I just wanted to let folks know that your body will not automatically revert to MAF pace when in a racing environment.

---

Congratulations - that's a nice result and it reminds me of my first
race after I did this for 8 weeks the first time. My pace didn't
improve much over the 8 weeks, but I did achieve several PRs
at 4+ min/mile faster than I had been doing in training. I just
remember how surprised and somewhat baffled I was. There's
no doubt that the race is where it really counts.

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posted Feb-06-2006 01:49 AM            

Getting there, and when I do, I'll be there.

--Jimmy

My Running World

 

posted Feb-06-2006 09:13 AM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:

Getting there, and when I do, I'll be there.

--Jimmy

---

Jimmy,

A few questions on your experiences to date:

In comparing your previous to training approaches to the current one do you have a sense where you are? That is, do you see progress at roughly the same rate as in the other two methods (i.e. ~250miles)? If not, do you have any thoughts on why? Not sure you mentioned it, but was your rate of progress with Pfitz the same as your first go around with Hadd?

Allowing for the fact that you have two years more base under your belt, do you expect to push your training paces lower than where they were before with the Maffetone approach?

Are you doing any extra hills (especially downhill) to prepare for Boston? If not yet, do you plan to spend any time focusing on hills (up or down)?

Where do you plan to peak in mileage? when will you hit it?

Are you doing any type of strength training (bodyweight or weights)?

Thanks,

--jm

 

posted Feb-06-2006 06:22 PM            

My concern is with the fact that since I haven't started Maffetone, I have gotten slower each consecutive week (I've been at this for a month now). I figured this would be the case the first week or two as I adjusted, but now that I have, it hasn't gotten better.

The first week, I was struggling to stay under my Maff at a pace that jumped between a 10 and 11 min. mile. After the first week, I managed to keep my HR in the necessary zone almost the whole run at a 12 min. mile pace (I never went more than 5 beats over my max and immediately walked when this happened). Weeks 2 and 3 didn't feel awkward or even a struggle to keep the pace...I was really happy with the progress.

However, this past week has been a struggle to keep my HR down, and I've slowed to a pace that ranges dramatically from a 12 to 13 minute mile. I don't feel uncomfortable by any means. I'm actually more comfortable with my running than I've ever been and have been able to increase my weekly mileage due to this training.

I just feel like I'm back-tracking. Is this normal? I don't want to stop, because I do believe this could really work for me. I should add that I am a bit on the younger end that is recommended for Maffetone training. I'm 22 years old, however I have been running consistently for 4 years and have been stuck for almost a year with my training. Plus, have experienced several injuries over that time.

Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

Shannon
 

posted Feb-06-2006 06:24 PM            

My concern is with the fact that since I haven't started Maffetone, I have gotten slower each consecutive week (I've been at this for a month now). I figured this would be the case the first week or two as I adjusted, but now that I have, it hasn't gotten better.

The first week, I was struggling to stay under my Maff at a pace that jumped between a 10 and 11 min. mile. After the first week, I managed to keep my HR in the necessary zone almost the whole run at a 12 min. mile pace (I never went more than 5 beats over my max and immediately walked when this happened). Weeks 2 and 3 didn't feel awkward or even a struggle to keep the pace...I was really happy with the progress.

However, this past week has been a struggle to keep my HR down, and I've slowed to a pace that ranges dramatically from a 12 to 13 minute mile. I don't feel uncomfortable by any means. I'm actually more comfortable with my running than I've ever been and have been able to increase my weekly mileage due to this training.

I just feel like I'm back-tracking. Is this normal? I don't want to stop, because I do believe this could really work for me. I should add that I am a bit on the younger end that is recommended for Maffetone training. I'm 22 years old, however I have been running consistently for 4 years and have been stuck for almost a year with my training. Plus, have experienced several injuries over that time.

Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

Shannon
 

posted Feb-06-2006 06:27 PM            

Shannon

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MyProfile
 

posted Feb-06-2006 06:34 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by sclark2:
I'm sure someone has addressed this concern beofre, but I am still making my way through this novel of a thread and haven't come across it yet.

My concern is with the fact that since I haven't started Maffetone, I have gotten slower each consecutive week (I've been at this for a month now). I figured this would be the case the first week or two as I adjusted, but now that I have, it hasn't gotten better.

The first week, I was struggling to stay under my Maff at a pace that jumped between a 10 and 11 min. mile. After the first week, I managed to keep my HR in the necessary zone almost the whole run at a 12 min. mile pace (I never went more than 5 beats over my max and immediately walked when this happened). Weeks 2 and 3 didn't feel awkward or even a struggle to keep the pace...I was really happy with the progress.

However, this past week has been a struggle to keep my HR down, and I've slowed to a pace that ranges dramatically from a 12 to 13 minute mile. I don't feel uncomfortable by any means. I'm actually more comfortable with my running than I've ever been and have been able to increase my weekly mileage due to this training.

I just feel like I'm back-tracking. Is this normal? I don't want to stop, because I do believe this could really work for me. I should add that I am a bit on the younger end that is recommended for Maffetone training. I'm 22 years old, however I have been running consistently for 4 years and have been stuck for almost a year with my training. Plus, have experienced several injuries over that time.

Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

Shannon

---

I assume it's a typo above where you say "since I haven't
started Maffetone, I have gotten slower ..." and you meant
to say since you *have* started Maffetone, right?

It's natural to lose some of your anaerobic speed in the initial
few weeks, but I really don't think it should be a trend that
continues (unless the weather is getting hotter and hotter
or something). I really
think that there's something to the issues at under age 25 thing,
but I have no idea what it is. It's not the advice I would give most
people who really want to be successful with this approach, but
why don't you try adding 10-15 beats to the 180-age formula for
a few weeks and see where that takes you (assuming that's not
what you were already doing before you started this). Probably
what you need is not so much exclusive low heart rate training,
but rather to make sure that a good percentage of your running
mileage is at not too hard of a pace. If you feel that this week
is a special case setback, while previous weeks showed some
kind of improvement, well, that does happen. Especially if you
might be coming down with a cold or something.

Incidentally, other than avoiding injury, do you feel you fit into
several of the categories in the FAQ #2?

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posted Feb-06-2006 07:10 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by sclark2:
I'm sure someone has addressed this concern beofre, but I am still making my way through this novel of a thread and haven't come across it yet.

My concern is with the fact that since I haven't started Maffetone, I have gotten slower each consecutive week (I've been at this for a month now). I figured this would be the case the first week or two as I adjusted, but now that I have, it hasn't gotten better.

The first week, I was struggling to stay under my Maff at a pace that jumped between a 10 and 11 min. mile. After the first week, I managed to keep my HR in the necessary zone almost the whole run at a 12 min. mile pace (I never went more than 5 beats over my max and immediately walked when this happened). Weeks 2 and 3 didn't feel awkward or even a struggle to keep the pace...I was really happy with the progress.

However, this past week has been a struggle to keep my HR down, and I've slowed to a pace that ranges dramatically from a 12 to 13 minute mile. I don't feel uncomfortable by any means. I'm actually more comfortable with my running than I've ever been and have been able to increase my weekly mileage due to this training.

I just feel like I'm back-tracking. Is this normal? I don't want to stop, because I do believe this could really work for me. I should add that I am a bit on the younger end that is recommended for Maffetone training. I'm 22 years old, however I have been running consistently for 4 years and have been stuck for almost a year with my training. Plus, have experienced several injuries over that time.

Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

Shannon

---

The first few weeks of Maff training for me showed a slowing trend too, but i believe I know why. The first few Maff runs I was pushing right up to my Maff number because it was so much slower than what I was used to. The subsequent runs got slower because I got more comfortable with the slower pace and began dropping the HR number I was targeting by a beat or two. This may not seem like it should make much of a difference, but it did. You may want to look closely at your running log and see if there are variables that could be the reason for the slowing trend.
Possibilities may include......HR target down even a few beats from beginning of Maff training, increase in mileage can affect your overall pace, running routes (including hills or other terrain that can slow you down), you also may be getting a cold or something and it just has not yet appeared.
Karen