posted Jan-29-2006 02:22 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by junkmiles:
It's amazing what you can do with photoshop and a couple well-paid hacker friends.

All hail Jesse! My check is in the mail.

**************************

Interesting to see how day-to-day mental attitude/physiology changes impact a run. Since you gravitate to the LR and seem to improve the longer the warmup, maybe the first 20miler is a warmup for the next one.

In my case, I had the worse run in the last 6 months today. Just a medium long run, but for some reason it felt like forever. Weather was bad and I got a late start so I did the 12miles on the treadmill. I never found my groove and things just felt bad throughout. It was physically easy, but just felt wrong throughout. Probably should have cut it short and wrote it off, but I kept going. I'm hoping this isn't an indicator for what the rest of my week is going to be like.

--jm

---

I'll be holding my breath until the money arrives. And here's one
of my photoshop works of art: JFK (brightroom)
Note that it appears that I was wearing a twinkie shirt and shorts. However, that's
purely a photoshop illusion - I was actually wearing a Cookie Monster shirt, blue jeans, and elephant boots. And further, I wasn't actually
in the race - I was handing out gatorade at a water stop.

I have debated whether it's better not to have run rather than to have
run a "bad" run. I came to the conclusion that as long as I stayed
reasonably in the zone it was better to have run the bad run than not
to have run at all. Of course, it doesn't help that old training log overall
pace, which looks pretty ghastly anyway, but what does that really
mean?

------------------
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Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
 

posted Jan-29-2006 04:01 PM         

First run over 10 miles in several months today. Finished, and wasn't real pleased with the run. Got back, downloaded the data. Turns out I had one of my faster runs of the last twelve months for this type of distance. Kept everything at Maf -5. Only runs I had faster than this were all 20-30 beats per minute higher and maybe 45 seconds per mile faster for those extra beats. Not blazing fast but at least I feel like I am making progress.
 

posted Jan-29-2006 04:37 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cashmason:
Dude, No pictures of Jesus, Buddha, or a wife with big hair and bad make up? No collection plate, and your own hour long show on TV? How do you expect to make any money off your disciples? You really need to watch more bad tv if you are going to get this cult thing going.

First run over 10 miles in several months today. Finished, and wasn't real pleased with the run. Got back, downloaded the data. Turns out I had one of my faster runs of the last twelve months for this type of distance. Kept everything at Maf -5. Only runs I had faster than this were all 20-30 beats per minute higher and maybe 45 seconds per mile faster for those extra beats. Not blazing fast but at least I feel like I am making progress.

---

I'll have to work those pics harder next time, putting more thought
into it. At least I've gotta do the beard more.

Excellent - any little bit of progress counts!

------------------
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MyStuff

Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
 

posted Jan-29-2006 05:02 PM            

Today marked the completion of my 6th week of Maffetone HR level training. It's been a great success for me and I'd like to share with the group.

Below are: Weekly Distance / Avg Pace / Avg HR

Week 1 - 22.3 / 13:16 / 144.83
Week 2 - 19.8 / 12:52 / 144.5
Week 3 - 16.4 / 12:43 / 144.25
Week 4 - 20.6 / 12:32 / 144.2
Week 5 - 22.1 / 12:29 / 143.2
Week 6 - 24.3 / 11:55 / 143.17

After week 2, I figured out that even though my heart could take running this much, my legs couldn't so I've incorporated swimming and riding an exercycle into my weekly routine.

My goal from the start was to get my MAF pace down to 10 mpm by the end of March and after seeing some of the rather negative results that some have posted I was concerned. But, my results seem to have me on track sofar.

------------------
Me

My Log
 

posted Jan-29-2006 05:10 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by plumbot:

Below are: Weekly Distance / Avg Pace / Avg HR

Week 1 - 22.3 / 13:16 / 144.83
Week 2 - 19.8 / 12:52 / 144.5
Week 3 - 16.4 / 12:43 / 144.25
Week 4 - 20.6 / 12:32 / 144.2
Week 5 - 22.1 / 12:29 / 143.2
Week 6 - 24.3 / 11:55 / 143.17

---

looks great, and you're a fairly new runner, too, is that right?

------------------
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MyStuff

Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
 

posted Jan-29-2006 05:12 PM            

--jm

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The running gods sure are fickle. I did a 20 miler saturday and felt strong both during and after. This morning I did a quick 3 mile recovery run to just loosen things up and felt absolutely awful. Felt like I was running through snow. I even felt like my wind had left. I normally take a rest day after a long run but I got some advice from some ultrarunners who recommended jogging a few miles the day after as it supposedly may assist in recovery.
 

posted Jan-29-2006 05:22 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
looks great, and you're a fairly new runner, too, is that right?

---

I re-started running in March last year, with a focus on the 5K I ran in July (a bet with a coworker that I could run sub 24 minutes). I did a lot of interval training and was only able to run an average of 3 times per week because of the discomfortI was always in the next day. Needless to say I lost the bet and interest in running.

I restarted in November, with the same goal for a New Years 5K and the same training style. Luckily, in mid-December I happened upon Cool Running and this thread. I cancelled my race plans, bought an HRM and have been been making great progress since.

------------------
Me

My Log
 

posted Jan-29-2006 11:14 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by sibelius:
The running gods sure are fickle. I did a 20 miler saturday and felt strong both during and after. This morning I did a quick 3 mile recovery run to just loosen things up and felt absolutely awful. Felt like I was running through snow. I even felt like my wind had left. I normally take a rest day after a long run but I got some advice from some ultrarunners who recommended jogging a few miles the day after as it supposedly may assist in recovery.

---

Interesting thing about today's run was that it was right on pace, it just didn't feel good.

Anyway, I find a short, easy run the day after a long(ish) run is more helpful than taking a day off.

--jm
 

posted Jan-30-2006 01:57 AM            

Between Oct. 31st, 2004 and November 20th, 2005, I worked my butt off. I ran 3 marathons, two half-marathons, a 10-miler, and dozens of shorter races and a little over 2000 miles in a years time. During that time, I always followed some solid rest and recovery principals--except after the Nov. 20th Philadelphia Marathon. After only 5 days rest, i went out and ran 11 days straight, and 13 of 14. Ignoring not only my usual rest I take after a marathon, but even my usual running "sabbath" on Mondays. I should have taken a good long rest after Philly. The psychological reasons for this abnormal behavior (for me) was that qualifying for the Boston Marathon freaked me out a bit. I felt I needed to prove myself when I got there. To whom I don't know. Just the general "observer" (all runners in this case) that I often project into my world. Anyway, this resulted in a mild case of tendonitis on the upper portion of my lower leg (on the side). Coinciding with this was the sudden death of my Mom on Dec 20th. During and after all the rituals, I took a break from running--15 days. Change was not only in the air, but a stark reality.

I picked up again on Jan. 3rd. I was little heavier, having gained a few pounds. I compulsively eat when I grieve, plus little activity. I still felt a little pain in the tendon after running about 3 miles. I decided then to experiment with walk breaks to see if I could increase my mileage without pain. It worked. I started power walking 1 minute, running 2 minutes, building up to 1 minute walk/5 minute running after 2 weeks. I ran 26 miles the first week, 36 the second. The third week, I started running all the way again, and managed 41 miles. It was a little too much too soon, as the tendon was getting sore after a 15 miler at the end of that week. I ran easy 4-5 milers this week, with a little pain this past Saturdaywhile running on the road. So, Sunday, I did my 10 miler today with walk breaks for a total of 33. So, my plan now is to reincorporate the walk breaks back in for whatever amount of time it takes to heal the tendon fully.

I'm keeping every mile under MAF. I find that my HR drops only a few beats from running HR during the walk breaks, so it's all in the proper aerobic zone. I also make most of the walk breaks some kind of hill, bewteen 1%-4% incline. I am finding that I am making progress since Jan. 3rd. My weight isn't coming down just yet, as I'm at a running high of 178 lbs. right now. The overeating is subsiding. So I'm confident the weight will drop.

At first, this change to using walk breaks was a blow to my ego, as I've had this limiting belief that runners don't walk. But my body is telling me I need them, so I better listen. Change is sometimes good. After reading a bunch of ultra marathon books, I realized some some great runners use walk breaks in training and in ultras. So, now I'm embracing the idea. I'm also adding in extra power walking workouts just to cover as much distance as possible. I figure if I can cover 70 miles in a week with running/walk breaks and power walks, my aerobic endurance has to get better.

Anyone have any experience with using walk breaks and walking to help with endurance training?

I'll keep you posted.

Take care.

Sincerely,
Jimmy

My Running World

[This message has been edited by jjwaverly42 (edited Jan-30-2006).]
 

posted Jan-30-2006 05:23 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:

Anyone have any experience with using walk breaks and walking to help with endurance training?

My Running World

[This message has been edited by jjwaverly42 (edited Jan-30-2006).]

---

I'm sorry to hear about your mom - an unexpected death will
require it's own major recovery phase and you certainly
can't maintain the status quo after such an event.

I think many of us mix in walking by necessity in the early phases
of the MAF training, so you're just carrying it out a bit further.
For myself, I generally switch to the wog on the hills when I'm
not in top condition. There's a woman I occasionally run with
(who also does ultras) that mixing in powerwalks and her
powerwalks are always faster than my wogs. She can easily
powerwalk faster than a 10 min. mile. And indeed, it's a common
approach to ultras. In this case, however, you are also getting
over an injury, so whatever it takes to be sure it doesn't creep
back up on you is worthwhile.

------------------
MyRunningLog

MyStuff

Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
 

posted Jan-30-2006 10:15 AM         

It sounds like you may have IT band syndrome in your knee. As you may remember, I had a partial insertion tear of my hamstring last year. Even after taking six months off it would still nag me if I over did it. I have discovered that running backwards on the elliptical trainer has really helped it a lot. I also will not hold on to anything when I go forewords on it. This makes a good exercise for improving balance and core strength. Also, try a roller on it. Good luck and keep us posted. Cathy

 

posted Jan-30-2006 10:58 AM            

I just read your post about your 2-20 mile runs the other weekend. I see your average was around 10:20-10:40 at 140bpm. Just asking; are you in peak aerobic fitness right now or are you working back towards it? I'm in around week 9 of Maff training and at 36 mpw. I did a 12 miler yesterday and ave. 10:09 at 138bpm. However, I've dropped my runs during the week down to maff-10 instead of all runs around maff-2 or 1. Do you think this will help progress even more? By the way my maff is 140. I want to get to the point where I can hold a 9:00 pace at 130 bpm for my long runs(12,15,18-20 miles). Is this possible? Maybe it will take a couple of base-building "seasons"? I'm also asking these questions because right now I feel I could not match my pr in a HM of 1:47. I've seen some of your pr's and there faster than mine so based on your 20-mile runs from the weekend could you go out and match your own pr's right now? Sorry, but I guess that was my original question/thoughts.
 

posted Jan-30-2006 12:25 PM            

The pain is in the lower leg, on the side, below the knee and down. So, I don't think it's ITB, as that is from the knee up. It's definitely an overuse, overtraining injury--that I know. Due to not allowing adaquate recovery time after the marathon before I started training again. I don't even feel if it if I take walk breaks, so it's nothing major. It'll heal.

Thanks for the suggestions. The roller is a good idea.

--Jimmy
 

posted Jan-30-2006 07:04 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike Behnke:
Hey Jesse:

I just read your post about your 2-20 mile runs the other weekend. I see your average was around 10:20-10:40 at 140bpm. Just asking; are you in peak aerobic fitness right now or are you working back towards it? I'm in around week 9 of Maff training and at 36 mpw. I did a 12 miler yesterday and ave. 10:09 at 138bpm. However, I've dropped my runs during the week down to maff-10 instead of all runs around maff-2 or 1. Do you think this will help progress even more? By the way my maff is 140. I want to get to the point where I can hold a 9:00 pace at 130 bpm for my long runs(12,15,18-20 miles). Is this possible? Maybe it will take a couple of base-building "seasons"? I'm also asking these questions because right now I feel I could not match my pr in a HM of 1:47. I've seen some of your pr's and there faster than mine so based on your 20-mile runs from the weekend could you go out and match your own pr's right now? Sorry, but I guess that was my original question/thoughts.

---

Hey Mike - I am absolutely not in peak fitness. After my last marathon
at the end of November (or rather a 10k race the week after), my aerobic
base had withered away quite a bit, just as predicted after a lot of racing,
even if most the racing was marathons, only about 20 beats above MAF.
At that point, I also cut everything way back and even took a week off
of running (or thereabouts). I've been rebuilding my base for the last
6 weeks or so (not starting from as poor a condition as last time!) and,
just as before, I'm slowly making progress, just starting to hit a few
sub-9 miles in outdoor runs on occasion. If you want to match my
training pace (at the time) to my PRs, you'll want to look through my
runs in the late Sept through late Nov time frame, which is also when
all of my PR races were. I'm still not sure they'll correlate well because
I ran so many marathons and other races in such a short time, I'm sure
the overall fatigue had to be a factor that slowed me down some. There
was not one of the races I ran where I used myself up, or even went
through my glycogen stores, even the 50 mile race (which I ran the
entire time, only walking through the food stops). Note that in my PR
marathon, it was one week after my PR 50 mile race (not the usual
recommended taper), my running HR was around 20-25 beats above
MAF (avg MAF+22), < 80% HRmax. Looking back, my last 20 miler
before the JFK 50 (one week before), was at an average pace of
8:47/mile (which was basically one minute slower pace than I ran in
the marathon and I let my HR go up to MAF+5 for the last few miles).
If I ran today, I would not likely match my PRs, at least not in the
marathon and I wouldn't try. I am scheduled to run my next marathon
on 2/19. I'll decide my target that day, running by feel, making sure
my HR doesn't climb too quickly. I will not be running that one all out
either because I'll be running several marathons in the several weeks
following.

Now, as far as your other question goes, it sounds like a very good
approach. It's really hard to say how low you can go (although I did
eventually get to where I could run 8s in the 120s). It's not clear
how far you'll get this round and how much better you can get next
season, but I'd say that by the progress you've seen so far, you're
likely to go much further. Now, for 20 mile training pace, keep in
mind that you will always drift through a run and for some of your
first 20 milers this training round, you'll probably see what I saw,
which was that at around 15 miles or so, you may start to drift
very quickly. This went away for me after, probably my 10th
or 15th 20 miler! (I did a lot of them). It is reasonable to assume
that you may hit the 9/mile 20 mile pace, but let yourself go up
to MAF for the last several miles as needed, at least the first
few times. Otherwise, you may find yourself walking. In the
marathon you should be able to sustain 20-30 beats or more higher
than MAF and in the HM, probably 35 or so.

What I've found is that the best approach is to see where your
body takes you and try to figure out what your pace will be once
you get close to race time and maybe even make the call on
race day. I just know that I had no idea how fast I'd be able to
run the 50 miler or the marathon (I ran the 50 miler 1.5 hours
faster than my target and the marathon 15 minutes faster than
I had expected, even being conservative on both).

------------------
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Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
 

posted Jan-30-2006 07:14 PM         

Been following the thread and have been a Maffetoner since my first marathon in December. I probably am guilty on A-H of your FAQ on who could benefit with the program. 2:10 half marathon, 5 hour marathon, guilty as charged. Read a couple of Maffatone's books, plus Parker's HRM for the Compleat Idiot. Makes sense for someone like who is an old beginner like me, but I was wondering if in order to get my mileage up if I should go more the Parker route. My MAF is 125 which is wogging at 16 MPM. And more W than og. I can walk 14 MPM and stay under MAF. I am only doing 15-20 miles per week, getting over some injuries.

My 70% ceiling with Parker's system is 144, so should I use that ceiling and work things down, or just stay with Maf's ceiling? I can actually run at 144, albeit 15 minute miles. Advise - Thanks!
 

posted Jan-30-2006 11:38 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
I haven't checked in to the thread in awhile, here's a little report:

Between Oct. 31st, 2004 and November 20th, 2005, I worked my butt off. I ran 3 marathons, two half-marathons, a 10-miler, and dozens of shorter races and a little over 2000 miles in a years time. During that time, I always followed some solid rest and recovery principals--except after the Nov. 20th Philadelphia Marathon. After only 5 days rest, i went out and ran 11 days straight, and 13 of 14. Ignoring not only my usual rest I take after a marathon, but even my usual running "sabbath" on Mondays. I should have taken a good long rest after Philly. The psychological reasons for this abnormal behavior (for me) was that qualifying for the Boston Marathon freaked me out a bit. I felt I needed to prove myself when I got there. To whom I don't know. Just the general "observer" (all runners in this case) that I often project into my world. Anyway, this resulted in a mild case of tendonitis on the upper portion of my lower leg (on the side). Coinciding with this was the sudden death of my Mom on Dec 20th. During and after all the rituals, I took a break from running--15 days. Change was not only in the air, but a stark reality.

I picked up again on Jan. 3rd. I was little heavier, having gained a few pounds. I compulsively eat when I grieve, plus little activity. I still felt a little pain in the tendon after running about 3 miles. I decided then to experiment with walk breaks to see if I could increase my mileage without pain. It worked. I started power walking 1 minute, running 2 minutes, building up to 1 minute walk/5 minute running after 2 weeks. I ran 26 miles the first week, 36 the second. The third week, I started running all the way again, and managed 41 miles. It was a little too much too soon, as the tendon was getting sore after a 15 miler at the end of that week. I ran easy 4-5 milers this week, with a little pain this past Saturdaywhile running on the road. So, Sunday, I did my 10 miler today with walk breaks for a total of 33. So, my plan now is to reincorporate the walk breaks back in for whatever amount of time it takes to heal the tendon fully.

I'm keeping every mile under MAF. I find that my HR drops only a few beats from running HR during the walk breaks, so it's all in the proper aerobic zone. I also make most of the walk breaks some kind of hill, bewteen 1%-4% incline. I am finding that I am making progress since Jan. 3rd. My weight isn't coming down just yet, as I'm at a running high of 178 lbs. right now. The overeating is subsiding. So I'm confident the weight will drop.

At first, this change to using walk breaks was a blow to my ego, as I've had this limiting belief that runners don't walk. But my body is telling me I need them, so I better listen. Change is sometimes good. After reading a bunch of ultra marathon books, I realized some some great runners use walk breaks in training and in ultras. So, now I'm embracing the idea. I'm also adding in extra power walking workouts just to cover as much distance as possible. I figure if I can cover 70 miles in a week with running/walk breaks and power walks, my aerobic endurance has to get better.

Anyone have any experience with using walk breaks and walking to help with endurance training?

I'll keep you posted.

Take care.

Sincerely,
Jimmy

My Running World

[This message has been edited by jjwaverly42 (edited Jan-30-2006).]

---

Jimmy~

I'm real sorry for you as you deal with your moms death.

Your running is going so well, though. Keep building up the mileage slowly, and HR down, and the rest will fall into place.

Ice your leg, and massage it, maybe that will help the tendon...I'm not exactly sure where your talking about the tenderness is located. Sounds like it's getting better. Sometimes warming it up, helps trememdously....some Tiger Balm or Sombra Cream (my favorite!)

Again, sorry about your moms passing.

Kris

posted Jan-31-2006 01:03 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boston124:
Jimmy~

I'm real sorry for you as you deal with your moms death.

Your running is going so well, though. Keep building up the mileage slowly, and HR down, and the rest will fall into place.

Ice your leg, and massage it, maybe that will help the tendon...I'm not exactly sure where your talking about the tenderness is located. Sounds like it's getting better. Sometimes warming it up, helps trememdously....some Tiger Balm or Sombra Cream (my favorite!)

Again, sorry about your moms passing.

Kris

---

Thank you, Kris.

Thanks for the suggestions.

--Jimmy

My Running World

posted Jan-31-2006 05:25 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by slawdawg:
Jesse-

Been following the thread and have been a Maffetoner since my first marathon in December. I probably am guilty on A-H of your FAQ on who could benefit with the program. 2:10 half marathon, 5 hour marathon, guilty as charged. Read a couple of Maffatone's books, plus Parker's HRM for the Compleat Idiot. Makes sense for someone like who is an old beginner like me, but I was wondering if in order to get my mileage up if I should go more the Parker route. My MAF is 125 which is wogging at 16 MPM. And more W than og. I can walk 14 MPM and stay under MAF. I am only doing 15-20 miles per week, getting over some injuries.

My 70% ceiling with Parker's system is 144, so should I use that ceiling and work things down, or just stay with Maf's ceiling? I can actually run at 144, albeit 15 minute miles. Advise - Thanks!

---

If it's mostly walk, my opinion is that you are better off spending
time at a higher heart rate value, seeing if it goes down. You'll
obviously need to be careful with your injuries. Do you know what
your resting heart rate is? I assume that you're subtracting 5 or 10
points off for your injuries, is that right?

------------------
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Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
 

posted Jan-31-2006 09:09 AM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
If it's mostly walk, my opinion is that you are better off spending
time at a higher heart rate value, seeing if it goes down. You'll
obviously need to be careful with your injuries. Do you know what
your resting heart rate is? I assume that you're subtracting 5 or 10
points off for your injuries, is that right?

---

My resting HR is 55. My injuries are just a tweaked hamstring (find the best stretch) and foot problems (find the best shoe). I did not add for the injuries but I was coming off 40-45 mile weeks so I thought I was in better shape. I'll try trotting at 140 and see if the HR will come down to 120-125. Thanks for the reply
 

posted Jan-31-2006 03:01 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by scottsaxman:
I don't own a treadmill, so I'm outside. It does take a while to get anywhere walking, but I figured it was mostly about the time spent at a particular heart rate, so I just kept going. I can run as slowly as about 4 mph, maybe a little less. I haven't run a mile by itself for a good long time, but the first mile of the last 5K I ran (last fall) was about 7:45.

I have wondered about whether I should just go out and run to get some miles under my feet, and revisit Maffetone in a couple of months, or stick with it and see what happens. I don't claim to be a runner, really, so I worried about the results a "beginning runner" might see.

---

I was in the same boat. New runner. I had to jog/wog at 3.3mph 30 seconds then walk until the hr went down and then start slooooow joggin again until the monitor went off. That was the first two weeks. I foud that in the 2nd week for every 15 seconds of walking it would lower my Hr enough to jog for 1 min. After 4 weeks I could jog the entire time at 3.5 or 3.6 mph for 30 min. I am now at about 10 weeks and I can go at 4.2 or 4.3 for 5 miles and not hit my maff of 146 even on small hills.

It is tough jogging that slow 3.3 mph.

Now I am doing the same thing, but rather than walking for 15 seconds and jogging, I slow it down to 3.5 mph and then jog 4.5. to 4.7mph until my HR hits 145 or so then slow it down again. So I guess I do some "speed work" within my Maff ranges depending on the day.

I am only running about 20 miles per week so I didn't expect my progress to be stunning, but I am actually quite happy with it so far. My mid term goal is a 10 min mile at 140 bpm or so for a 5 to 7 mile run. Maybe by end of summer?

Keep plugging
 

posted Jan-31-2006 06:32 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by slawdawg:
My resting HR is 55. My injuries are just a tweaked hamstring (find the best stretch) and foot problems (find the best shoe). I did not add for the injuries but I was coming off 40-45 mile weeks so I thought I was in better shape. I'll try trotting at 140 and see if the HR will come down to 120-125. Thanks for the reply

---

I think you should try that. By the way, you would normally subtract
for the injuries, rather than add, but in this case, you'll have to find a
pace where you can actually run, by some definition. Give it a try and
see what happens.

------------------
MyRunningLog

MyStuff

Low Heart Rate Training FAQ
 

posted Jan-31-2006 07:56 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
If it's mostly walk, my opinion is that you are better off spending
time at a higher heart rate value, seeing if it goes down.

---

Jesse, I know it's just your opinion, but why do you think this? And, how much over MAF is would you guess is too much (my MAF is 145)? I walk about 4 mph to maintain 135-140 bpm, and I've found that jogging, even at about 3.7 mph, puts me up to 165 bpm. The super slow jog did wonders for helping figure out how to improve my form, though!

Thanks,
Scott