posted Jan-15-2006 04:02 PM         

1 14:52 1.00 121 130 140
2 14:40 1.00 123 129 169
3 14:30 1.00 123 132 236
4 14:47 1.00 123 129 188
5 14:35 1.00 123 130 156
6 14:47 1.00 124 131 182
7 15:07 1.00 122 130 160
8 14:54 1.00 123 136 160
9 5:21 0.33 123 136 64

 

posted Jan-15-2006 04:50 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cashmason:
Just posting this as a reference for future runs. Done from Huntington Beach Pier towards Seal Beach Perfect day for running. Around 55 degrees. Using Maf -5 = 126 beats per minute.

1 14:52 1.00 121 130 140
2 14:40 1.00 123 129 169
3 14:30 1.00 123 132 236
4 14:47 1.00 123 129 188
5 14:35 1.00 123 130 156
6 14:47 1.00 124 131 182
7 15:07 1.00 122 130 160
8 14:54 1.00 123 136 160
9 5:21 0.33 123 136 64

---

what are the last three numbers in each line? HRavg? ??? ???

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posted Jan-15-2006 05:44 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cashmason:
Just posting this as a reference for future runs. Done from Huntington Beach Pier towards Seal Beach Perfect day for running. Around 55 degrees. Using Maf -5 = 126 beats per minute.

1 14:52 1.00 121 130 140
2 14:40 1.00 123 129 169
3 14:30 1.00 123 132 236
4 14:47 1.00 123 129 188
5 14:35 1.00 123 130 156
6 14:47 1.00 124 131 182
7 15:07 1.00 122 130 160
8 14:54 1.00 123 136 160
9 5:21 0.33 123 136 64

---

If these data are recorded anything like my HR monitor does. the 3 HRs are:

Avg, ending and max. per lap.

If that is the case, then either your are consistently getting erroneous HR readings on every lap (maybe you are running a loop and cross under powerlines every time). Or you are running up a hill each lap and way out of range before you bring the HR back down. If it is the former, well that just sucks. If it is the latter then you need to find a different loop or walk the hill .

We'll mark these for future reference. Good luck.

--jm

p.s. also for reference, I'm about to have a pace drop. I did 2h 15min this morning with marginal HR rise (well within cardiac drift allowance) and no pace slow down.
 

posted Jan-15-2006 07:19 PM         

I am just so frustrated but I have only myself to blame
 

posted Jan-15-2006 09:04 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by christa0120:
ok Maffers.
I was doing the MAF training but decided to go ahead and do the half I was seriously undertrained to do. I just couldn't pass it up since I have ben doing it every year since it started (this was it's 3rd yr)
Time to run...HR was 150...way over MAF. Couldn;t get it down to save my life, not even walking did it get much below 140.
Was that just anxiousness?
Will I ever be a better runner?
I KNOW I HAVE NOT BEEN DOING MAF LONG ENOUGH FOR A REAL ANSWER TO THIS, I AM JUST HAVING A PITY PARTY AND A BIT OF GUILT/EMBARRASSMENT.

I am just so frustrated but I have only myself to blame

---

don't sweat it. you're not supposed to run a race at MAF HR, you just run.

Once you have a block of time to dedicate to Maffetone you can start again.

posted Jan-15-2006 09:14 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Run Page Run:
Duh dummy me, I see now i need to go to the track and run a set distance and record everything then say a month later run the same distance and record my findings there. Thanks, i wasn't using my head for yes i have been running on all different types of terrain and at times don't record my distance , but just run by time. I think I will make the track run, record it all, and just keep running for another month and then do another maff test, plus keep it easy.

---

Nah, it's not all that bad, no reason to smack yourself around or
anything! Only point is that unless you're really keeping rigorous
records, you're really not going to be able to make quantitative
judgments on progress over the (relatively) short term. It's not
to say that you can't make progress without keeping rigorous
records, but rather that you'll only be able to see what's happening
over longer periods of time. In general, you're probably doing fine
to make progress in this over the long haul, but if you really want
to make somewhat frequent judgments, you have to put in somewhat
tight controls. Good luck!

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posted Jan-15-2006 09:19 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by christa0120:
ok Maffers.
I was doing the MAF training but decided to go ahead and do the half I was seriously undertrained to do. I just couldn't pass it up since I have ben doing it every year since it started (this was it's 3rd yr)
Time to run...HR was 150...way over MAF. Couldn;t get it down to save my life, not even walking did it get much below 140.
Was that just anxiousness?
Will I ever be a better runner?
I KNOW I HAVE NOT BEEN DOING MAF LONG ENOUGH FOR A REAL ANSWER TO THIS, I AM JUST HAVING A PITY PARTY AND A BIT OF GUILT/EMBARRASSMENT.

I am just so frustrated but I have only myself to blame

---

So, you did a race that you enjoy doing every year - I don't see the
big deal. You really can't expect to stay below MAF in a race although
there have been a couple of folks that have posted saying they did
that. At 10 beats above MAF, you were still well in the aerobic regime,
so I don't think you'll see any serious impact as long as you get "back
to the grindstone." Toss the guilt, embarrassment, and frustration
and jump back into your schedule.

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posted Jan-16-2006 11:25 AM         

In the meantime, I’ll try to dwell on a few of the positive things to come out of this daily MAFFing. I must warn you, however, my observations are quite a bit less technical than the VO2 max discussion I read a few pages back, so reader beware.

1. I’ve learned, for instance, never to laugh at a woggler again--not even at the beer-bellied man who shuffles by my house everyday in his jeans, a cowboy shirt and white socks. In fact, he just passed me on my run from behind the other day. I told him I loved his socks. He told me that with practice I could run like him.

2. I used to run before dawn in the dark. Now I awake an hour earlier and have grown to appreciate the sunrise, the morning traffic, the lunch rush and the elementary kids getting home from school--all on the same dang loop I’ve always run. I wave and smile as the kindergarten kids pass by me--again from behind--before going home.

3. I used to be too tired to think or anything else on my 7-minute-a-mile runs. Now I ponder, talk to myself, answer when asked a question, and laugh at my own jokes. Life is good at 11+ minute pace. When asked what I was doing one day by a pregnant women who was taking a stroll and, again, caught up with me from behind, I chuckled and told her I was just Maffing.” She gave me a sideways glance. As she breezed by me, I hollered at her, “MAF and the world MAFs with you. Run fast and you run alone.” Unfortunately, by then she was too far ahead to hear me.

4. I have taken up singing on my wogs. I have always wanted to sing but was always too busy trying to run fast. Now that things have slowed down, I decided to don a Santa’s hat and red leotards on my MAF runs. I now bellow this song to the tune of jingle bells. “MAFFing nice and slow, like a tortoise on his way, ore the hills I go, MAFFing all the way! Bells on churches ring, making time seem long, Oh what fun it is to wog with this pace that seems all wrong! Hey!

MAFFing trails, MAFFing trails, MAFFing all the way, Oh what fun it is to wog in a MAFFing sort of way. Hey!”

5. I have become much more creative since I began MAFFing. I often imagine, when wogging along, that I am a 100-year-old man shuffling through a deep, muddy trail just ahead of a sea of elderly racers. The Chariots of Fire theme song rings out it’s slow-motion melody. I see crowds amazed that I am still alive. I am amazed myself that though I have no teeth and skin that sags to my knees, I can still wog ahead of my peers. Isn’t it great to be alive, I imagine, until a real elderly man with a cane blows right by me and breaks my concentration. My dreams crumble to reality and I realize once again that I am not really that old--just that slow.

6. Finally, I have come to realize that racing is not all there is to running. There is something about wogging that is worth its weight in sweat. I mean, wogging may be slow, uncomfortable, difficult to maintain, frustrating as heck, silly to watch and do, annoying, brutal on the ego, a turn-off to good-looking women, questionable exercise, easy to criticize, too slow, too easy and unbecoming to any self-respecting human being who claims to be a “runner,” but regardless, MAFFing merits consideration.

According to the Maffilonians, if you train at MAF pace, you’ll end up with a golden heart, a silver circulatory system and a god-like bod that even those who are laughing at you now will, one day, come to appreciate. Better still, eventually, you’ll leave all your competitors behind with their tongues hanging out while you breeze to an easy finish at a heart rate that only a dead relative could boast.

So here’s to you Dr. MAF! May you live forever or if you must die, may you go to that great wogging field in the sky where there is no heart rate and no dang beeping monitors to disturb your heavenly bliss. May you forever wog and may all your wogging be pleasant and full of quiet and peacefully slow thump--thumps!

Cheers to you and all who grace this wogging thread! J

posted Jan-16-2006 11:36 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by GForce1:
Thanks for the responses. I�ll keep trying. I will continue to vary my runs (41, 35, 42, 25, 67, 52 minutes on my runs this past week) and try running them even slower--below MAF -5.

In the meantime, I�ll try to dwell on a few of the positive things to come out of this daily MAFFing. I must warn you, however, my observations are quite a bit less technical than the VO2 max discussion I read a few pages back, so reader beware.

1. I�ve learned, for instance, never to laugh at a woggler again--not even at the beer-bellied man who shuffles by my house everyday in his jeans, a cowboy shirt and white socks. In fact, he just passed me on my run from behind the other day. I told him I loved his socks. He told me that with practice I could run like him.

---

I loved the list of observations, even if they didn't quite meet the
level of technicality of the vo2max and lactate threshold discussion.
I must focus on your #1, however. Was the last sentence true? If
so, it hits close to home. There is a guy out here who said something
similar to me. Most people around here know me and they know what
I'm up to, but he didn't. I remember running into him at one of my
recent marathons (I was actually surprised that he was running a
marathon). He offered to pace me through. I finished an hour and
40 minutes ahead of him. I made certain to avoid him at the end.
I doubt he knows my name and I see no reason to burst his bubble.

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posted Jan-16-2006 11:46 AM         

Happy Maffing!
 

posted Jan-16-2006 04:24 PM            

I'm 43, male, run about 25mpw. My heart rate according to this guy should be around 135 (180-43). If I understand this correctly, I should train with my heart rate at or near 135. If this is the case, I've been checking my heart rate and I'm clocking about a 9 minute training mile at 135bpm. I am following you thus far.

The question is, how does training at this speed make my times during races get better? I know I'm a rookie on this but I'd like to hear from you or anyone else.
 

posted Jan-16-2006 04:49 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Johnnystella:
Ok, this thread is massive, daunting, and I'm too lazy to read all of it. However, here is what I glean from the Maffetone method. One should run within their aerobic training zone while training right?

I'm 43, male, run about 25mpw. My heart rate according to this guy should be around 135 (180-43). If I understand this correctly, I should train with my heart rate at or near 135. If this is the case, I've been checking my heart rate and I'm clocking about a 9 minute training mile at 135bpm. I am following you thus far.

The question is, how does training at this speed make my times during races get better? I know I'm a rookie on this but I'd like to hear from you or anyone else.

---

I'd say a good 80-85% of this thread is summarized in the FAQ, so
unless you're a glutton for punishment or you really want to see
all of the debates on lactate threshold, vo2max, cuckoo birds,
etc., use that as a starting point. Basically, it works by building
a strong aerobic system: training your slow twitch muscle fibers
to become "fast", training yourself to use mostly fat for fuel
while running, and building mitochondria. For a while, you will go
through a process of transitioning your anaerobic speed to aerobic
speed, so you will slow down a lot at first, and then you will get
faster at longer distances. Simply put, this makes use of another
gas tank you have, but perhaps haven't been using. Let's assume
that right now, you can run about 6:20
mile at a heart rate of about 170. Chances are that with several
solid months of dedicated training, you'll be able to run close to
that at a heart rate of 135 using mostly fat, rather than mostly
carb for fuel. This will make a huge difference in marathon
performance, as well as for shorter races. It means that you
can run *much* faster at a heart rate of 170 then and that you
can carry that 6:20 pace for much longer distances, with a much
greater smile on your face much later in the race. In 5 months
training with absolutely no speed work, I improved my marathon
by 30 minutes, 50 miler by over 2 hours, and 10k by over 2 minutes.
The first time I did this for 8 weeks, I improved my one mile race
time by over 30 seconds, 5k by about 40 seconds, 10k by 2 minutes,
and marathon by 9 minutes. And my marathon PR was one week
after the 50 miler PR that I mentioned above, which was 2 weeks
after my 10k PR, which was 3 days after I had just run 4 marathons
in 8 days. I did a lot of volume (including biking and swimming)
but it was all easy volume.

I would suggest this - take a look at the low HR training FAQ.
If you're still interested, glance through some of the links I provided
(they're not all from Maffetone), and then, if you're still interested,
probe through the thread. If you run at a 9 minute mile at the low
HR, then trying it shouldn't be very painful for you, unlike many of
us who had to start at painfully slow paces (my pace at the beginning
was slow than 15 min/mi and eventually got to 7:20/mile at the my
peak at the beginning of race season).

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[This message has been edited by leitnerj (edited Jan-16-2006).]
 

posted Jan-16-2006 08:02 PM            

I can't believe it, but I may be the first person ever to get themselves injured while doing MAF training. Things were going so well. I was able to ramp up mileage from around 30 miles a week to between 50 and 60 miles for the last month. However, last week I noticed some weakness in my right knee while on the treadmill. The next few days - same story. I felt fine for the first hour or so and then right knee felt weak again. I rested a day and then went out for my LSD run on Sunday. At the 5.5 mile mark same story. I cut my run short and jogged in some pain back to the car for a measly 11 miles (I had planned to go at least 16).

Went to the doc this morning and based on where the pain is he said it was most likely the meniscus. Recommended taking a week or two off of running and then we should reassess the condition. He also mentioned I should start some lower body resistance training (I lift weights but generally only upper body since I started running) to strenthen up my quads and surrounding muscles.

I'm not sure how much my increased mileage contributed or not. However, I thought I'd just advise folks to be careful in ramping up the miles - even if you feel fine. Hopefully, I'm just an isolated case.
 

posted Jan-16-2006 08:23 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by sibelius:
AAARRRGGGHHH.

I can't believe it, but I may be the first person ever to get themselves injured while doing MAF training. Things were going so well. I was able to ramp up mileage from around 30 miles a week to between 50 and 60 miles for the last month. However, last week I noticed some weakness in my right knee while on the treadmill. The next few days - same story. I felt fine for the first hour or so and then right knee felt weak again. I rested a day and then went out for my LSD run on Sunday. At the 5.5 mile mark same story. I cut my run short and jogged in some pain back to the car for a measly 11 miles (I had planned to go at least 16).

Went to the doc this morning and based on where the pain is he said it was most likely the meniscus. Recommended taking a week or two off of running and then we should reassess the condition. He also mentioned I should start some lower body resistance training (I lift weights but generally only upper body since I started running) to strenthen up my quads and surrounding muscles.

I'm not sure how much my increased mileage contributed or not. However, I thought I'd just advise folks to be careful in ramping up the miles - even if you feel fine. Hopefully, I'm just an isolated case.

---

I doubt you're the first, but if it's a meniscal tear, it's not likely
just from overuse - it's likely that it was something that happened
from an event of some kind (a minor tear) that has grown into a
more significant tear. No doubt that strengthening the neighboring
areas will take some of the stress off of the meniscus as well as
your neighboring cartilege and ligaments in your knee. Good luck -
I hope you get to the root of it.

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posted Jan-17-2006 04:45 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Noquickfix:
Weight loss and success? Did anyone see significant weight loss and then see improvement? I'm not looking to use MAF as a weight loss method, I'm just curious to see if success was parralleled by significant weight changes.
This is a excellent and informative forum. I first used an adaptation of Hadd's approach, but now use MAF, since it's a much simpler and straight forward way of training for me. If this question has been addressed, please reply with page number. Thanks

---

Just to clarify - is your question whether MAF training has provided an
increase in weight loss, or whether an increase in weight loss leads to
better performance? For me, the increase in volume that I've done with
MAF training (including lots of biking and swimming and lots of running)
has made it difficut for me to keep weight on, but that has just pushed
me to eat more. I don't think MAF training in itself will have better
weight loss effects, but it may enable someone to take on more volume,
assuming that's what's desired. More volume = more calories burned =
more weight loss assuming you don't compensate with more eating!
Some have also said that under MAF training, they didn't experience the same degrees of hunger that they did under more traditional training approaches. I'm not sure I've seen a difference. Certainly, if one loses
weight and maintains strength, that should amount to faster paces.
Sorry if I may not have understood your question.

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posted Jan-17-2006 05:17 PM         

Right now I'm running about 65-80 miles/week. My training pace varies between 7:30 min mile and 9:45 min. mile (depends on if I'm running along or with a group and what kind of workout it is---I run faster when alone). I can't say this with 100% certainty, but I don't believe that my heart rate frequently exceeds 138bpm (have only used an HRM once--otherwise I just check my heart rate within 6 seconds of stopping--I'm sure I'll need an HRM if I'm really going to do this). Even though I'm fairly new to running, I come from a fitness background (taught various group fitness classes for many years & did personal training and have maintained high cardiovascular fitness throug the years). Will low HR training help me to improve my speed, even though I'm already doing the majority of my training at what seems to be a low heart rate? (I'm female, 39)
 

posted Jan-17-2006 05:21 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by runfan123:
I've read through much of this topic (including the FAQ and links to articles), and it looks really interesting. I'm actually thinking about trying this. I've only been running for about 18 months, but my goal is to run a 3:38 and a 3:30 marathon in 2006. I ran 3 marathons in 2005 finishing in 4:26, 3:51, and 3:48.

Right now I'm running about 65-80 miles/week. My training pace varies between 7:30 min mile and 9:45 min. mile (depends on if I'm running along or with a group and what kind of workout it is---I run faster when alone). I can't say this with 100% certainty, but I don't believe that my heart rate frequently exceeds 138bpm (have only used an HRM once--otherwise I just check my heart rate within 6 seconds of stopping--I'm sure I'll need an HRM if I'm really going to do this). Even though I'm fairly new to running, I come from a fitness background (taught various group fitness classes for many years & did personal training and have maintained high cardiovascular fitness throug the years). Will low HR training help me to improve my speed, even though I'm already doing the majority of my training at what seems to be a low heart rate? (I'm female, 39)

---

If you already run most of your runs at less than 138 bpm then this
may not be a change for you at all. What are your times for shorter
distance races?

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posted Jan-17-2006 06:27 PM         

I would bet that, by this point, you might have done more than Maffetone himself to spread the word about Maffetone to mid-pack runners. Which is appropriate -- he's not very impressive.
 

posted Jan-17-2006 06:40 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
If you already run most of your runs at less than 138 bpm then this
may not be a change for you at all. What are your times for shorter
distance races?

---

The only other race I"ve done was a 10 miler; finished that in 1 hr 15 min. Maybe I've been unintentionally doing low heart rate training...hope I don't mess up my progress by focusing on it too much now!
 

posted Jan-17-2006 07:13 PM         

I hit three hills on my route that pushes HR 15 bpm. The increase last for 30 seconds to a minute.

Is this fine? Or should I walk the hills????

Thanks,

Scott

posted Jan-17-2006 07:23 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by grapescott:
Can I jump in with a quick question-

I hit three hills on my route that pushes HR 15 bpm. The increase last for 30 seconds to a minute.

Is this fine? Or should I walk the hills????

Thanks,

Scott

---

strict adherence would say walk the hill or at least take it a little slower to stay under your target HR. you could also mitigate the impact of the hill if coming into the hill you held HR 5-10bpm below your MAF HR.

On a two hour run a minute out of range might not be a big deal, but it depends. Going 15bpm over could trigger physiological responses that don't come back down with your HR. If so it could have a negative impact on this type of training. So the easiest answer would be the first, walk or slow down on the hill until you can take it and stay under target.

--jm