posted Jan-06-2006 09:03 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by pmbooks:

If I had a criticism re this thread, it would not be about its content,
but about how verbose it's turned out to be; the [valuable] points
have been made many times over. This is why it seems to me
more like a forum than a thread. Mean no offence, of course.

Paul

[This message has been edited by pmbooks (edited Jan-06-2006).]

---

Yeah, I do know what you mean. This is more of a forum. We've
been down that path before and never could figure out how to
make it one. The length is out of control and who the heck
can jump in new and catch up on everything. Hopefully I'll
get an FAQ done soon that will at least start to simplify things.

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posted Jan-06-2006 09:16 PM            

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[This message has been edited by hurryinhoosier (edited Jan-06-2006).]
 

posted Jan-06-2006 09:18 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by hurryinhoosier:
you need you own blog where you can have FAQ and post information about progress. People could then comment and add to your comments in a more categorized fashion

---

Please, don't give me any ideas. This already takes too much time
out of my running as it is!

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posted Jan-07-2006 12:51 AM            

-- Sgt. Jimmy
The Royal Order of Protectors Of Thread Integrity

My Running World

posted Jan-07-2006 06:35 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by camy:

I've been running/cycling at exclusivly low HR (< 157 = 70% HRR) for about a month now, and increasing the mileage. I have also been reducing my upper limit (ie timer) by 2 bpm every other week. I will be running a half marathon in April and plan on all aerobic training. This is about the 3'rd or 4'th time I decide to give the MAF method a try, but cannot stick to it.

Thanks

---

Camy- so are you saying that right now your approach is to run all
runs at 70% HRR, and then the same for swimming and cycling?
Are you carefully tracking your pace per mile, avg heart rate, etc., as you
go along? Are you measuring rest heart rate each day, or just
using the best value you've obtained? One thing that I consider
"opposite" in the Karvonen approach is that if you are sick, overtrained,
or otherwise have a high resting heart rate for a day, it would raise
your heart rate limit for that day. So, for example on a day when I'm
at my training peak, well-rested, low RHR (38), 70% HRR is just over
158 (MAF for me is 144 if I don't add or subtract anything). I've
had days (oddly, when in peak training after a "rest" day), where RHR
would be up to about 52 (right now it's higher for me as I cut back
mileage a lot and got sick recently - two things which happen together
for me!). So, on those days, my 70%HRR is 163. Likewise, for two
indviduals with same max heart, this formula would tell the less fit
individual to run at a higher heart rate. So, what it does is that tends
to "equalize" pace much more than level of effort. Are your plans to
stick with 70%HRR for a while, see if your heart rate goes down, and
then try to work down to MAF? There's little doubt that with your
frustration with the MAF approach and your lack of confidence in the
values, that you should stick with the Karvonen formula. Without
full confidence that the MAF might work, I don't think there's a good
chance that you'll want to stick with it because at the latter end of
runs or on hills, you're likely to
ignore it. Hence, since it's not much higher for you anyway, give
the 70%HRR approach a try for a while and see what happens,
making sure to carefully record your paces and heart rates (otherwise,
the only real measure of progress is races and, while they are the
bottom line, it's hard to equalize things). It would be a great data
point to see if your heart rate eventually drops down from the higher
heart rate.

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posted Jan-07-2006 06:46 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boston124:
Hello Everyone!
I am aware that outside temps and hills and himidity can effect HR. However, I thought that the cooler the temp the HR you are aiming for can be easier---rather you would go alttle faster at that HR because the temp is cooler.

However, I don't think I'm finding this with winter running. Could this becasue your body is working harder to stay warm and cool off because of the running. OR, am I just the only one finding this.

My HR is much slower outside in cold weather than inside on the treadmill.

For example, an outside run (and yes some inclines come and go) can be a 13:51 pace, and at the same HR inside on a treadmill while running a 12:30 pace. Is that a big difference??? Or just normal. I do have the treadmill on a 0% incline because I'm still building base and watching my MAFF HR.

---

Hi Boston - it doesn't look like anyone responded to this. I definitely
have the same thing - my pace on the treadmill is always faster.
I would bet, however, that if the temp in the gym were pumped up by
a good 15 degrees and humidity increased, and, on the outside, you
could find a dead flat course, you would see the opposite. Also,
cashmason at some point had posted a pace vs temperature chart
that showed that as temps got cooler than around 50 degF, paces
would decrease as well (although, I don't think I've ever specifically
perceived that).

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posted Jan-07-2006 03:53 PM            

I didn't run yesterday because of it the stuffyness, but was feeling so good today, other than the fact that I can't breath through my nose, that I put in my longest run since Xcountry in HS. In fact, when I ran today, my head actually cleared up during my run (i't's subsequently filled up).

Is this a pretty good indication that I'm suffering from allergies, rather than some other illness?
 

posted Jan-07-2006 04:01 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by plumbot:
Stuffy nose question. I've read through this thread and others that generally a person's HR will increase when they are sick. My nose and head have been stuffed up and I've had a scratchy throat for a few days now but my resting HR has not increased.

I didn't run yesterday because of it the stuffyness, but was feeling so good today, other than the fact that I can't breath through my nose, that I put in my longest run since Xcountry in HS. In fact, when I ran today, my head actually cleared up during my run (i't's subsequently filled up).

Is this a pretty good indication that I'm suffering from allergies, rather than some other illness?

---

That's what I would guess since I'm haunted by allergies and unless
I'm running regularly at 70+ mpw, I frequently have a stuffiness problem,
and the run clears it up. Given that your RHR isn't high, that's a
pretty good indicator. You may have to blow a bunch of snot rockets
starting about a mile in, but there's a good chance you will have helped
flush your respiratory system.

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posted Jan-07-2006 06:03 PM            

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posted Jan-07-2006 06:34 PM            

My only comments would be to either put a space netween the questions or make the questions in BOLD so that you can very easily separate them.

Happy LHR training!
Steve

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posted Jan-07-2006 07:51 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ultrasteve:
Very good, Jesse! This is a keeper!

My only comments would be to either put a space netween the questions or make the questions in BOLD so that you can very easily separate them.

Happy LHR training!
Steve

---

Definitely! For some reason, when I published it, all of the formatting
faded away. Gotta figure out how to get all of the formats to stick.
thanks, Steve.

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posted Jan-07-2006 08:04 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
Ok, let's see if I got this right. I've put together version 1 of
the Low Heart Rate Training FAQ and added the link to my
signature. Comments welcome. Hopefully I got this right this
time.

---

Very nice. I have one question. Today I did a 10.4 mile run. I did not eat at all before taking off (~9:00). I was thinking about one of the points you note re: not eating for a few hours.

Anyhow, at about mile 5 I ate a single Cliff Blok (~25 calories)and a swig of Gatorade.

Got home, ate some cereal, showered, ate some whole wheat waffles and an apple.

About 3 p.m. started feeling horrible, shaky, etc. Is there any chance this was related to not eating BEFORE running? This is the same way I felt 3 months ago after I bonked in a half marathon inspiring me to do the low hr training.

I have run at most 8.6 miles but did so running in the afternoon after having eaten that day.

This obviously concerns me. Any thoughts? My HR avg was 145 which is my target.

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Base Building Graph ~~ My Log
 

posted Jan-07-2006 08:50 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by hurryinhoosier:
Very nice. I have one question. Today I did a 10.4 mile run. I did not eat at all before taking off (~9:00). I was thinking about one of the points you note re: not eating for a few hours.

Anyhow, at about mile 5 I ate a single Cliff Blok (~25 calories)and a swig of Gatorade.

Got home, ate some cereal, showered, ate some whole wheat waffles and an apple.

About 3 p.m. started feeling horrible, shaky, etc. Is there any chance this was related to not eating BEFORE running? This is the same way I felt 3 months ago after I bonked in a half marathon inspiring me to do the low hr training.

I have run at most 8.6 miles but did so running in the afternoon after having eaten that day.

This obviously concerns me. Any thoughts? My HR avg was 145 which is my target.

---

First, although it sounds like a silly slang word, "bonk" has a specific
meaning - that is depleting the glycogen stores in your body, hence
hitting the wall. That did not happen to you in a half marathon.
The distance and time are not long enough to deplete your glycogen
in a half. You burned out because you saturated with lactic acid
(most importantly, the hydrogen ions therein) due to pacing yourself
too quickly, just as if you would have if you had started a 5k too fast.
That assumes you don't have some kind of nutritional problem or
a low carb diet or something.

Now, as far as your experience yesterday, I can't imagine that it's
related to "not eating before running" but it could easily be related to "not
eating enough until 3 pm". So, until 3 pm, all you had was a Clif Blok,
some gatorade, some cereal, some whole wheat waffles, and an apple.
Not very much food, and certainly not very much protein. I probably
have bigger eating requirements, but by 3, I would have eaten at least
3 times that and much more in the way of protein. Also, did you have
enough in the way of fluids and electrolytes (the distance is quite short
for either of those to have been a problem unless it was inordinately
hot, but it's worth the question).

Look, everyone has time constraints and can't always run at an ideal
time. Sometimes you've got to live with running whenever you can,
even if it's shortly after you eat, whatever you had. The point is not
to rely on sparking off your runs with carbohydrates and try to avoid
needing sugar rushes during your runs. If working hard to "follow the
rules" is causing you to not eat during the day, I'd say you have to
do your best. Today, I had a short window of opportunity to get my
run in, so I had to do it within 10 minutes after I had two breakfast
burritos loaded with jalopenos, eggs, and cheese and three large
glasses of milk.

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[This message has been edited by leitnerj (edited Jan-07-2006).]
 

posted Jan-07-2006 08:57 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Run Page Run:
Hey Steve, I run on the dirt/gravel roads on our local National Forrest-- which i've been hunting on for over twenty years--- and there are a bunch of trails where people ride horse back all through the smallest national forrest in the country of 13,000 acres and I thought about you guys and after mile one on the dirt roads i said what the heck and hung a right on a trail. My wife gave me some NB 907's for Christmas and man do they feel good, even on asphalt but I put them and this old bod through the test on them trails. Man was that a fun new experience and I kept my maff around 130 and was running in some hills to and sloshing through the horse tracks in mud etc. and did it ever give me a work out. I could tell my legs period got a workout but it really worked on the stabilizing muscles in my lower legs and my footpod registerd four miles on the trails and i did another three on the roads. I thought about you Ultra runners as i jogged through the woods, and man was it a serene, and i invisioned myself in the lead on mile 99 of an ultra race lol. which made me start running too fast but i caught myself pretty quick and slowed to my Maff. I'm definatly going to make these trails part of my running lifestyle after that and can't wait untill the next time i can hit them. Just thought i'd share my experience with you guys for it definatly works our bodys different than a road or tread mill run and may add spice to our runs. Take care all, Page

---

Trail running is awesome and it really aids in strengthening and
recovery. Sometimes it's really tough to control heart rate because
the climbs can be huge and the amount of focus you have to keep
on the ground can be taxing on your heart. I think you've found a
great piece of the overall running puzzle. I'll sometimes go out
with a friend of mine on some really nasty trails here at 4:30 am,
headlamps on, dodging the roots, crossing rivers, climbing sides
of cliffs, etc., and it's a great experience.

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posted Jan-07-2006 09:07 PM            

That was an incredible amount of time and organization you put into the FQA. It is really well done!

Now....add the music....hummm...something like,*Hit the Road Jack*

Anyway, thank you so much for doing that for everyone! I'm going to print it and keep in my Maffetone book.

Kris
 

posted Jan-07-2006 09:22 PM            

quote:

---

two breakfast burritos loaded with jalopenos, eggs, and cheese and three large glasses of milk.

---

First - At what mile did you get sick :P I take it you don't have cholesterol issues either I have a crappy metabolism and therefore still have to watch it so dang closely even when I run as much as I do. I think I have seen that weight is 80%% diet, 20% fitness.

Anyhow, appreciate your fast response. I have a pretty scientific background and am impressed by your knowledge of the molecular/scientific aspects of running. Any reading you recommend tha discusses training in such an way that would help me understand these details... for example, your explanation about lactate buildup (btw - I did not feel any soreness in my legs which I would think unusual).

Thanks again!

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[This message has been edited by hurryinhoosier (edited Jan-07-2006).]
 

posted Jan-07-2006 10:02 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by hurryinhoosier:
First - At what mile did you get sick :P I take it you don't have cholesterol issues either I have a crappy metabolism and therefore still have to watch it so dang closely even when I run as much as I do. I think I have seen that weight is 80%% diet, 20% fitness.

Anyhow, appreciate your fast response. I have a pretty scientific background and am impressed by your knowledge of the molecular/scientific aspects of running. Any reading you recommend tha discusses training in such an way that would help me understand these details... for example, your explanation about lactate buildup (btw - I did not feel any soreness in my legs which I would think unusual).

Thanks again!

---

I have extremely low bad cholesterol and high good cholesterol,
but only since I started running a lot, and really since I started
running, biking, and swimming a lot. Nothing bad about breakfast
burritos - they were made with egg beaters, so there was no
saturated fat or cholesterol, lard-free tortillas, and a moderate
a mount of cheese - nothing in there that would cause a cholesterol
problem, (no trans fat, minimal saturated fat, and pretty much no
cholesterol - what's left to be concerned about?). Nowadays I have
to eat a lot just to keep from shriveling
up. 2 years ago, all I ate was lean cuisine, rice cakes, and water,
and I gained a couple of pounds a week!

I would guess that your feelings of dizziness and weakness associated
with runs are because of the fact that you are on the fine line of trying
to take in enough good calories to maintain energy and trying not to
eat too much so that you gain weight. As far as your half marathon
goes, I suspect that you had a very low lactate threshold, so you were
very sensitive to the slightest early over-pacing. The heart rate
training will do a lot to correct that and if at some point you add speed
work beyond the "fast-finish" long runs that I had suggested, your
next step should be some tempo runs to help push up that LT.
When I've saturated my system from lactic acid build-up, I really
don't get a lot of "burn" or heaviness in the legs, but my heart rate
just peaks out and everything shuts off.

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posted Jan-07-2006 10:09 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
Ok, let's see if I got this right. I've put together version 1 of
the Low Heart Rate Training FAQ and added the link to my
signature. Comments welcome. Hopefully I got this right this
time.

---

Excellent FAQ. This will make things a lot easier for new comers to this thread, as well as others. This thread is a monster to get through, especially with no background. The FAQ was a good idea and you've done an excellent job.

Not sure you wanted us to check for typos or anything but I noticed one typo you might want to catch, as well as a statement that wasn't clear to me.

1. Typo is in 3rd sentence in question 8. "..... significant simple...." [I'll assume you meant sample].

2. In question 22 you state, "...use 60% of your anaerobic threshold heart rate."

Here I think you meant something more like 80%?

Again, good job.

--jm
 

posted Jan-07-2006 10:27 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by junkmiles:
Excellent FAQ. This will make things a lot easier for new comers to this thread, as well as others. This thread is a monster to get through, especially with no background. The FAQ was a good idea and you've done an excellent job.

Not sure you wanted us to check for typos or anything but I noticed one typo you might want to catch, as well as a statement that wasn't clear to me.

[b]
1. Typo is in 3rd sentence in question 8. "..... significant simple...." [I'll assume you meant sample].

2. In question 22 you state, "...use 60% of your anaerobic threshold heart rate."

Here I think you meant something more like 80%?

Again, good job.

--jm[/B]

---

good catches - I saw the first, but not the second. Indeed that's
80%. 60% is, well, perhaps sleeping ...

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posted Jan-07-2006 11:42 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
Ok, let's see if I got this right. I've put together version 1 of
the Low Heart Rate Training FAQ and added the link to my
signature. Comments welcome. Hopefully I got this right this
time.

---

Thanks so much for your time and thought that went into this. I think you're the best!

 

posted Jan-08-2006 01:51 AM         

30. I like to lift weights – do I need to stop?

Weightlifting is anaerobic, so in theory it can interfere. I kept up my upper body weightlifting, with somewhat heavy weights and still saw great progress. Lower body may be more of a problem.

Here's my question (after all the work you did I'm sorry I must ask one). Just recently I was diagnosed with Chondromalacia or "runners knee". It happened due to a mucular imbalance in my quads. My doctor told me to start doing strengthening exercises on my quads,abs,hamstrings,glutes,back and calves. I now do these for 45:00 everyday. I only use weights to do leg raises for my quads. I use them 5 lb jobs that you wrap around your ankles. The rest is just crunches, situps and the like. Will this kind of strength training affect my aerobic training? I don't think I can give it up for it cured my knee.

BTW THANKS FOR THE FAQ
 

posted Jan-08-2006 05:31 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by runawayjesse:
Great FAQ Jesse!! I didn't get to read all of it yet I just skimed but this caught my eye-

30. I like to lift weights – do I need to stop?

Weightlifting is anaerobic, so in theory it can interfere. I kept up my upper body weightlifting, with somewhat heavy weights and still saw great progress. Lower body may be more of a problem.

Here's my question (after all the work you did I'm sorry I must ask one). Just recently I was diagnosed with Chondromalacia or "runners knee". It happened due to a mucular imbalance in my quads. My doctor told me to start doing strengthening exercises on my quads,abs,hamstrings,glutes,back and calves. I now do these for 45:00 everyday. I only use weights to do leg raises for my quads. I use them 5 lb jobs that you wrap around your ankles. The rest is just crunches, situps and the like. Will this kind of strength training affect my aerobic training? I don't think I can give it up for it cured my knee.

BTW THANKS FOR THE FAQ

---

I think the strengthening for you is much more important than
anything else you do at this point. Further, it's not as if you're
going to be doing anything really intense to stimulate your
anaerobic system anyway, so there's no question here what
you should do.

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posted Jan-08-2006 08:43 AM            

Quick question/observation on Low Heart Rate training during long runs.

I did a 21 miler yesterday and tried to keep HR in target range. Things went relatively well for the first 15 miles or so. Then I began to see ever increasing degridation - especially for mile 20 & 21. In order to keep in my target range the last two miles I would have needed to go from a wog to a walk. I decided to keep the wog going but the HR ended up about 10 beats over target at the end. It's very frustrating as I now wonder if I just blew the aerobic benefits of the entire run.

I have gotten to the point where I can keep all my week day runs (all done on a gym treadmill between 6 and 10 miles) within my target. It's the very end of the long runs on weekends (all done outside from 16M - 22M) that are becoming the issue.

Is anyone else experiencing this? What is the best course of action? In the future, should I walk the last few miles if I need to in order to stay within target range? Is my problem "normal"? Or is it indicative of really poor aerobic fitness? I'd like to think I would improve on long runs but I am noticing that this is becoming a tough hurdle for me to clear.

On a side note, I ran this distance for the first time without eating/drinking any carbs before or during the run - just had water. I did not notice any adverse effects at all so I will definately keep this up.

posted Jan-08-2006 10:10 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by sibelius:
Hi Folks:

Quick question/observation on Low Heart Rate training during long runs.

I did a 21 miler yesterday and tried to keep HR in target range. Things went relatively well for the first 15 miles or so. Then I began to see ever increasing degridation - especially for mile 20 & 21. In order to keep in my target range the last two miles I would have needed to go from a wog to a walk. I decided to keep the wog going but the HR ended up about 10 beats over target at the end. It's very frustrating as I now wonder if I just blew the aerobic benefits of the entire run.

---

I absolutely noticed that for about the first 3 or 4 20 milers that I
did. It gets better and you didn't blow the entire aerobic benefit of
the run. There was a point where it simply felt impossible to
control the heart rate, even by walking, the first several times.

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