posted Dec-12-2005 06:03 PM            

1. His opinion on "high tech" and minimal shoes? I have some superfeet inserts and I think they may bother my right ankle. I tried running in my shoes w/o any inserts at all - and it actually felt good?! I grew up barefoot and dancing and I have high arches, what he says makes sense...but I don't want to get injured either...do you all go for the minimal supportive shoe? It's rather chilly & slushy here in Chicago...

2. Does he think sit-ups are anaerobic? I really want to try MAF for 12 weeks and was surprised about the weight lifting, cross country ski machines, etc being "off limits" during base building. Does that mean plain squats too? I have 5-8# dumbbells, I'm a wimp trying to get fit/build bone as 40 is up around the curve. His books certainly sound as if this HRM is for all of us, not just for you super heros...

My dog is happier about our mostly walking pace, so far it's sad for me - only able to "jog" for about 3-5min at a time and I feel like I'm just learning to run slow (14-15mm), but I'm committed...and I guess I'm total newbie so I hope MAF works for newbies (started running in July, missed 3wks in Nov due to illness). I'm out about 35-45min 4x wk + 1.5h ea on Sat & Sun - so my actual exercise times are drastically improved, but distance is still btn 15-20mpw, will try to increase as family/sch permits.

------------------
Each day is a gift from God, let's live like we believe it...
 

posted Dec-12-2005 06:08 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by BJL:
Hi, I'm reading 2 Maffetone books (Maffetone Method, the Holistic.. & The High Performance Heart..) and am curious if any of you agree or ascribe to:

1. His opinion on "high tech" and minimal shoes? I have some superfeet inserts and I think they may bother my right ankle. I tried running in my shoes w/o any inserts at all - and it actually felt good?! I grew up barefoot and dancing and I have high arches, what he says makes sense...but I don't want to get injured either...do you all go for the minimal supportive shoe? It's rather chilly & slushy here in Chicago...

2. Does he think sit-ups are anaerobic? I really want to try MAF for 12 weeks and was surprised about the weight lifting, cross country ski machines, etc being "off limits" during base building. Does that mean plain squats too? I have 5-8# dumbbells, I'm a wimp trying to get fit/build bone as 40 is up around the curve. His books certainly sound as if this HRM is for all of us, not just for you super heros...

My dog is happier about our mostly walking pace, so far it's sad for me - only able to "jog" for about 3-5min at a time and I feel like I'm just learning to run slow (14-15mm), but I'm committed...and I guess I'm total newbie so I hope MAF works for newbies (started running in July, missed 3wks in Nov due to illness). I'm out about 35-45min 4x wk + 1.5h ea on Sat & Sun - so my actual exercise times are drastically improved, but distance is still btn 15-20mpw, will try to increase as family/sch permits.

---

Simply put, I think his shoe stuff is a bunch of crap and I don't pay
much attention to what he says about other types of anaerobic
workouts. I guess if you were to do situps for a considerable amount
of time, you would have to think about it, but otherwise it's probably
little concern.

------------------
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posted Dec-12-2005 06:16 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jim Sullivan:
[QUOTE]What one should do in a marathon or any other race of importance is whatever has been proven to work for that runner. Currently, I take in carbs before a race or a long run, as I've done them both with and without carbs, and I run better after the carbs. That's the only thing that matters.

---

No doubt - I was exactly the same way before I started this type
of training, when carb was my primary fuel source. The additional
carbs, whenever I took them, were always helpful, although I always
had significant difficulties at around mile 20 or so in marathons. If
you're not trained to use primarily fat for fuel, the objective becomes
to preserve and extend your glycogen fuel tank as long as possible.
Certainly well-trained runners (especially elites) are going to depend
a lot on glycogen because in an all-out marathon, they'll be up
very close to anaerobic threshold for most of the race, using a high
percentage of carb for fuel. Since I run my marathons easy and
slow, I'm well into fat burning the whole time and I don't run low on
carb. We'll see how much, if at all, better I can get than 3:24 on
that approach.

------------------
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posted Dec-12-2005 06:26 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jim Sullivan:
What one should do in a marathon or any other race of importance is whatever has been proven to work for that runner. Currently, I take in carbs before a race or a long run, as I've done them both with and without carbs, and I run better after the carbs. That's the only thing that matters.

---

Wisdom! (Clearly, we are all experiments of one.) Thanks Jim.

posted Dec-12-2005 08:22 PM         

TIA

Never Quit
 

posted Dec-12-2005 08:37 PM            

After dropping your paces really low to stay within the Maff zone, I understand that the pace will eventually improve. But my questions is, did anybody (everybody?) improve their pace beyond where they were running previously?

i.e. I used to run a 5 mile training run at about an 8:30 pace. I am now doing the same 5 mile route at about a 10:00-10:20 pace ( I am only 1 week into the slow HR training). Has anybody seen the kind of improvement that would lead me to hope to run this same route during a training run at 8:00 - 8:30 pace and stay within my aerobic zone? I hope this makes sense. I had trouble putting my thought into writing.
Karen

P. S. Even this early into HR training I have experienced a couple of runs where my HR down shifted and I was able to pick up the pace a bit. One run my HR seemed to be right on the edge of downshifting, but didn't quite get there. It would drop about 5 beats, I would pick up the pace, and then my HR would spike a bit too high. It was like I couldn't find the right gear . This has been recent, so I am hopeful that I may be seeing the benefits already, but am prepared that this may have been an anomaly.

Karen
 

posted Dec-12-2005 10:43 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Never Quit:
Hi. I've been using the Maff training for about 6 months and my pace has increased by about 4 minutes/mile. Now, the question is, needing to do some speedwork, what % of my weekly mileage should be dedicated to hills, mile intervals, 800 intervals. Also, will I lose much of my base training when I start the speedwork?

TIA

Never Quit

---

If your goal is half marathon or longer, for a while I would add tempos
(between 10k and half marathon race pace) and hill intervals, once
a week switching between the two for one day every other week.
Given your 4 min/mi improvement, I would
say you've improved your vo2max tremendously, so I would guess
the critical thing to do would be to push that anaerobic threshold up
as much as you can. If you still keep about 85-90% of your weekly
mileage below MAF, you probably won't erode your base at all at this
point. After that, see what happens - track intervals mixed in
occasionally might make a good addition. If you want to get two
days of speed work in, I would make the other day a fast-finish
long run or progression run (increase the pace a bit each mile).

------------------
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[This message has been edited by leitnerj (edited Dec-12-2005).]
 

posted Dec-12-2005 10:47 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ksabbo:
Many posters have indicated that their pace has significantly improved since beginning Maffetone.

After dropping your paces really low to stay within the Maff zone, I understand that the pace will eventually improve. But my questions is, did anybody (everybody?) improve their pace beyond where they were running previously?

Karen

---

Yes, especially on the treadmill. My treadmill pace used to be about
8:00-8:30 per mile on runs greater than 6 miles (at high heart rates).
At my peak during Maffetone training, just before
racing, I hit a best of 7:15/mile, at 30 beats lower heart rate. My long
run paces got a little bit faster and more consistent (i.e., didn't slow
down very much at the end to keep the heart rate down, whereas in
the past, I always had to slow down at the end, just to keep going).

------------------
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posted Dec-13-2005 07:33 AM         

Never Quit
 

posted Dec-13-2005 08:04 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by BJL:
Hi, I'm reading 2 Maffetone books (Maffetone Method, the Holistic.. & The High Performance Heart..) and am curious if any of you agree or ascribe to:

1. His opinion on "high tech" and minimal shoes? I have some superfeet inserts and I think they may bother my right ankle. I tried running in my shoes w/o any inserts at all - and it actually felt good?! I grew up barefoot and dancing and I have high arches, what he says makes sense...but I don't want to get injured either...do you all go for the minimal supportive shoe? It's rather chilly & slushy here in Chicago...

2. Does he think sit-ups are anaerobic? I really want to try MAF for 12 weeks and was surprised about the weight lifting, cross country ski machines, etc being "off limits" during base building. Does that mean plain squats too? I have 5-8# dumbbells, I'm a wimp trying to get fit/build bone as 40 is up around the curve. His books certainly sound as if this HRM is for all of us, not just for you super heros...

My dog is happier about our mostly walking pace, so far it's sad for me - only able to "jog" for about 3-5min at a time and I feel like I'm just learning to run slow (14-15mm), but I'm committed...and I guess I'm total newbie so I hope MAF works for newbies (started running in July, missed 3wks in Nov due to illness). I'm out about 35-45min 4x wk + 1.5h ea on Sat & Sun - so my actual exercise times are drastically improved, but distance is still btn 15-20mpw, will try to increase as family/sch permits.

---

Let me give you a couple of experiences I've had...

On #1...
Back in the early late 70's I had some runner's knee problems. The thing to do back then was to go see a podiatrist and get orthotics to correct just about everything. If you had a headache when you ran, you went and got orthotics
Anyway, I got the orthotics and developed shin pain. I was training for the Boston Marathon and the pain was getting worse, so I went back to the Podiatrist and he "adjusted" the orthotics. The shin pain was getting worse and worse, so I started to do a lot of reading about the foot and how it works. I read how our arch is our shock absorbers, it flattens out so that the shock doesn't go up through your body. The orthotics were like taking the springs out of your car and putting wooden springs in their place.
One day while running along the paths along the Charles River in Boston, the pain was so incredible that I knew I shouldn't be running at all. But I wanted to try one thing....I took out the painful orthotics and within 10 steps, the pain got less. I was running pain free for the first time in weeks! It was then and there that I decided to never use orthotics again, but instead to strengthen the supportive muscles around my feet and knees. I did that, the shin pain went away, then original knee pain never came back and I ran Boston in 3:03...
Don't listen to Maffetone when he says to go to Walmart and buy your shoes....get some good shoes that work well for you. Everyone has their own tastes...for road running I like Asics and Brooks, for trails I wear Montrail, but I'm thinking of trying the new Inov-8 shoes this Spring.

On #2.

I have always and will continue to do situps and pushups. I also have a Total Gym and do a total body workout on that a couple of times a week. I also believe (see above) in working the muscle groups on the feet and legs doing single leg squats and lunges. Wall sits work well, too to build the quads.

#3...

Your schedule sounds great! Keep this up and your distances will increase in time.

PS: I have begun to run since the knee hitting the icy road. I ran yesterday for the first time. 35 minutes, walking and jogging. Leg feels funky, but no pain. Feels like the knee has less support than it used to have. I started to do souble leg squats also and will move ot SLS next week.

------------------
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My User Profile

My Photo Page
 

posted Dec-13-2005 08:06 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Never Quit:
Thanks, Jessie: This is where I'm a little confused...I'm training for a marathon, and by what everyone says, it's an aerobic event. Hence, I did a lot of low HR running. I'm 59 so I kept my HR < 121. Yeah, I got faster at that HR, but when reading Maf's book he says you'll erode your base by doing speedwork. So, HOW does speedwork help you with an aerobic event? And, since there's so many different "types" of speedwork, which ones would you recommend for the marathon? I would think hills, and mile repeats and LT runs. The longer, less intense, but faster than MP is what I think would work. Am I on the right path? During the week, like on Wednesday, do you think a 10-12 miler run at Maf pace would help me retain my aerobic conditioning during the speedwork training? My Sunday long runs are usually 17 or 20 milers. Should those be done at a 121 -127 HR, then finish with a MP last 3 or 4 miles?
Thanks, I really appreicate your help.

Never Quit

---

After you build your base, in the last 8-10 weeks or so leading up to the marathon, I would recommend LT runs every other week at 80-90% MHR, 20-40 minutes. Also, 2 race pace tempo runs: a 12 and a 14 miler at race pace. Personally, I don't do too much V02 max, maybe just a few sessions 6x800 at 95-98% MHR.I'm thinking of dropping them altogether, as I think LT and tempo miles are more important for a marathon than intervals. I find that when I start doing the intervals on top of the high mileage, it's too much--I feel like my legs are taking a pounding. The rest of the miles should be aerobic, and the majority of those should be round your MAF or below.

This has worked for well for me. It's the heart rates I got from Pfitzinger's & Douglas's Advanced Marathoning.

--JImmy

My Running World

posted Dec-13-2005 09:09 AM            

_________________________________________
MAF test #1 Nov. 29th, 2005 (ran marathon on Nov 20th)
treadmill at 0% incline temp=64 deg.

Mile/time/ ave hR/%decay to mile 1/ %decay to preceding mile
1) 9:25 142
2) 9:42 142 3.01%
3) 10:04 142 6.9% (3.78% from mile 2)
4) 10:33 142 12.03% (4.8% from mile 3)

Total decay=12.03%
Ave. rate of decay: 4.01%
Ave. speed=9:56
__________________________________________
MAF TEST #2 December 12th, 2005
treadmill at 0% incline temp=64 deg.

Mile/time/ ave hR/%decay to mile 1/ %decay to preceding mile
1) 9:38 140 ----
2) 9:52 140 %2.42%
3) 10:15 140 %6.40% (3.89% from mile 2)
4) 10:31 140 %9.16 (2.6% from mile 3)
5) 10:53 140 %12.98 (3.49% from mile 4)

Total decay=%12.98
Ave. rate of decay: 3.25%
Ave speed: 10:14
____________________________________________

I think the higher % of slowing in my first MAF test reflects the marathon still being in my legs, and perhaps from running over my MAF of 141. Especialy the slowing between the 3rd and 4th miles.

Should I be looking at any other data? Does anyone see anything I'm not seeing (in the data, not hallucination--wise)?

Thanks.

--Jimmy

My Running World

 

posted Dec-13-2005 09:23 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ultrasteve:
Let me give you a couple of experiences I've had...

Your schedule sounds great! Keep this up and your distances will increase in time.

PS: I have begun to run since the knee hitting the icy road. I ran yesterday for the first time. 35 minutes, walking and jogging. Leg feels funky, but no pain. Feels like the knee has less support than it used to have. I started to do souble leg squats also and will move ot SLS next week.

---

Thank you Steve, I think I will try w/o the superfeet for awhile. I actually ran 90% of 2.8 mi today! I know in my gut this MAF thing is what I need so I'm committed. I will walk on my heels and other things to work my ankles/shins. I hope your knee heals well and soon...

------------------
Each day is a gift from God, let's live like we believe it...
 

posted Dec-13-2005 10:37 AM         

------------------
I'll do the best I can with what I have to work with...
~Anonymous Moose Member

My Profile
 

posted Dec-13-2005 12:10 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ShinSplintTodd:
I am a 29 Year old male weighing in around 173. I have been running since July. I have lost 25 pound by eating right and excercising but have not lost anything lately. I run about 12 miles per week. I tried running in the Maffetone zone (151) and I am really slow. 12-13 minute miles. Even slower on hills as my HR was jumping up to 160 at times. Am I too new of a runner to try the Maffetone approach. I want to get better and fitter. This idea seems great. I like what I have read.

---

I also started in July; I've been using MAF for 2 weeks now, my ave is 15mm (today it was 13:50!) - but I feel great and I've NEVER been on my feet this long 4.5h/wk; and my RH has already dropped to 60 from 68/72. It's winter, I'm going to give this MAF a try for 3 mos. and see if I can beat my 9:30ish mm in the Spring. I definitely have more energy, and I think my illness in Nov was due to training too hard. The folks on this thread are wonderful and supportive..

------------------
Each day is a gift from God, let's live like we believe it...
 

posted Dec-13-2005 05:07 PM         

------------------
I'll do the best I can with what I have to work with...
~Anonymous Moose Member

My Profile
 

posted Dec-13-2005 06:36 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ksabbo:
Hey Jesse, I just realized you live in Maryland. Where in Maryland. I recently moved from New Market Maryland (Frederick County), to Boonsboro Maryland (Washington County). I am located exactly between the start and finish of the JFK 50 miler
Karen

---

I'm in Columbia and, oh yes, I know Boonsboro well now, after my
2 JFKs and a number of training runs from Boonsboro on the Appalachian
Trail.

------------------
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MyStuff
 

posted Dec-13-2005 06:46 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Never Quit:
Thanks, Jessie: This is where I'm a little confused...I'm training for a marathon, and by what everyone says, it's an aerobic event. Hence, I did a lot of low HR running. I'm 59 so I kept my HR < 121. Yeah, I got faster at that HR, but when reading Maf's book he says you'll erode your base by doing speedwork. So, HOW does speedwork help you with an aerobic event? And, since there's so many different "types" of speedwork, which ones would you recommend for the marathon? I would think hills, and mile repeats and LT runs. The longer, less intense, but faster than MP is what I think would work. Am I on the right path? During the week, like on Wednesday, do you think a 10-12 miler run at Maf pace would help me retain my aerobic conditioning during the speedwork training? My Sunday long runs are usually 17 or 20 milers. Should those be done at a 121 -127 HR, then finish with a MP last 3 or 4 miles?
Thanks, I really appreicate your help.

Never Quit

---

Speedwork will indeed chisel away at your aerobic base as will
any racing, even marathons (if you do several of them) as you will
likely run above MAF. Your base should carry you well through
several races and speedwork, if you do it in moderation. If you
follow Mark Allen's links, he talks about it and he points out that
before each new season, you should go back to basics. If your
marathon involves significant hills, then you definitely should focus
on hill training as far as speedwork goes. As far as an aerobic
event goes, depending on which type of speedwork you do, it
will help you in different ways: vo2max (track intervals) workouts
will help you to recover quickly from intense runs (which you
won't likely do much of in the marathon), increase your
core speed, and, in general, prepare you to deal with stressful
running. Tempos will push up your lactate threshold and hills
will have a strengthening effect and a similar effect as vo2max
workouts. Other than the core speed improvement and hill
strengthening, you will get most of these benefits just from
aerobic running (I certainly did). Finishing a few of your long
runs at or slightly faster
than MRP for, say, the last 3-4 miles will give you substantial
benefit without really affecting your aerobic base. It will also
give you a feel for what might be your marathon target heart
rate.

------------------
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posted Dec-13-2005 06:49 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ultrasteve:

PS: I have begun to run since the knee hitting the icy road. I ran yesterday for the first time. 35 minutes, walking and jogging. Leg feels funky, but no pain. Feels like the knee has less support than it used to have. I started to do souble leg squats also and will move ot SLS next week.

---

Kind of good to hear, but I wonder if you might have a strain in your
PCL or MCL, hence the "less support" feeling. Hopefully, each run
will get progressively better. Sounds like you're playing it smart.

------------------
MyRunningLog

MyStuff
 

posted Dec-13-2005 06:54 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
Did my second MAF test yesterday on the treadmill at 0% incline. My first MAF test, I averaged HR 1 bpm over my MAF of 141 with a 142. This time I tried to average 1 bpm under (140), keeping 141 as the top number that I would let myself see, if I saw 142 or higher for longer than a blip, I'd adjust the speed down. Conversely if I saw readings below 137-138 for longer than a blip, I'd adjust the speed upwards. I also went 5 miles this time, instead of 4.

_________________________________________
MAF test #1 Nov. 29th, 2005 (ran marathon on Nov 20th)
treadmill at 0% incline temp=64 deg.

Mile/time/ ave hR/%decay to mile 1/ %decay to preceding mile
1) 9:25 142
2) 9:42 142 3.01%
3) 10:04 142 6.9% (3.78% from mile 2)
4) 10:33 142 12.03% (4.8% from mile 3)

Total decay=12.03%
Ave. rate of decay: 4.01%
Ave. speed=9:56
__________________________________________
MAF TEST #2 December 12th, 2005
treadmill at 0% incline temp=64 deg.

Mile/time/ ave hR/%decay to mile 1/ %decay to preceding mile
1) 9:38 140 ----
2) 9:52 140 %2.42%
3) 10:15 140 %6.40% (3.89% from mile 2)
4) 10:31 140 %9.16 (2.6% from mile 3)
5) 10:53 140 %12.98 (3.49% from mile 4)

Total decay=%12.98
Ave. rate of decay: 3.25%
Ave speed: 10:14
____________________________________________

I think the higher % of slowing in my first MAF test reflects the marathon still being in my legs, and perhaps from running over my MAF of 141. Especialy the slowing between the 3rd and 4th miles.

Should I be looking at any other data? Does anyone see anything I'm not seeing (in the data, not hallucination--wise)?

Thanks.

--Jimmy

My Running World

---

I think you're right on and this is the type of trend I would expect
to see in the early stages. And, as you add more mileage, each
time, you will likely see a more significant slow down in pace
the first time for the "new distance."

I do, however, think I saw an image of Knute Rockne in your
data, but that's neither here nor there.

------------------
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posted Dec-13-2005 06:59 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ShinSplintTodd:
I am a 29 Year old male weighing in around 173. I have been running since July. I have lost 25 pound by eating right and excercising but have not lost anything lately. I run about 12 miles per week. I tried running in the Maffetone zone (151) and I am really slow. 12-13 minute miles. Even slower on hills as my HR was jumping up to 160 at times. Am I too new of a runner to try the Maffetone approach. I want to get better and fitter. This idea seems great. I like what I have read.

---

It's always hard to say whether this is right for one person or the
next. When I started up running again after a 3-month injury hiatus,
I was slower than you are at MAF. After a few months, things really
picked up. However, I had been running for about a year and a half
before my injury, so that background probably helped things progress
a bit faster. In either case, good luck - I hope you see some results.

------------------
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MyStuff
 

posted Dec-14-2005 07:34 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
It's always hard to say whether this is right for one person or the
next. When I started up running again after a 3-month injury hiatus,
I was slower than you are at MAF. After a few months, things really
picked up. However, I had been running for about a year and a half
before my injury, so that background probably helped things progress
a bit faster. In either case, good luck - I hope you see some results.

Jessie,

Did you ever do a MAF test before you were injured for 3 months. I am just wondering how much progress you made because of MAF considering you were off a while. Would any type of running made you faster even if you included a tempo run in there once per week. The reason I ask is because Tinman who posts on www.run-insight.com says that one should do tempo work year round and it will not affect aerobic base. He also recommends paces termed Critical Velocity which I won't get into. Tinman seems to be a God on letsrun.com and this particular sight and has helped so many people.He really knows his stuff and has done a ton of research and offers free advice.

I guess I am starting to question if it is wise for me to not be doing a tempo run once per week and if MAF training will help me if I only do 20 miles per week???? I think I will give MAF training 3 more weeks which will put me at around 7 weeks - if I don't notice any improvement, I will probably add a tempo run in per week until Spring. I do like the comfort of running at this pace but I don't want to go backward.

---