Maffetone low heart rate training - progress and observations (long!)
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Originally published in Basic Training
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Topic: Maffetone low heart rate training - progress and observations (long!) |
jjwaverly42
Cool Runner |
 posted Dec-08-2005 10:10 AM
 
I've been doing a ratio of 40% carb/ 30% protein/ 30% fat the past two weeks. I'm mostly off refined sugar (little in the soup I eat). So far, I haven't felt less energy on any runs. The big difference is that I am not bonking while at work anymore. I have a more steady, even energy throughout the day. I've lost a few pounds to boot. I mostly ate fat-free and had very little fat in my diet before. Now, I have my old buddy almond butter back as a main staple. Olive oil and fish oil are also my fats of choice. I still eat pasta, but only 2 oz at a time, a few times a week. We'll see how all this works with long runs. I haven't gone over 8 miles since the marathon two weeks ago. --Jimmy My Running World
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GoDawgGo
Cool Runner |
posted Dec-08-2005 10:20 AM
Hi Jimmy,I have been eating a moderate carb diet now for about 3 years. It has done wonders for me, especially with regards to sustained energy. I feel I am better able to access my fat stores on long aerobic runs. I used to have difficulty doing a 40 minute run on an empty stomach first thing in the morning. Now I can go 2+ hours, no problem. This biggest change was dropping a lot of the High Glycemic stuff I used to eat and incorporating fat into the diet. I now eat lots of raw nuts, flax seed oil, olive oil, avocados, fish. I still eat pasta now and then, but I usually opt for whole grain pasta and Trader Joes has a higher protein, higher fiber pasta which tastes real good and doesn't cause the typical insulin spike. During base building I found that I don't need a lot of carbs. However, when doing anaerobic work leading up to a race, I bump up my carb content. This cycling seems to work real well for me.
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kelmarker
Cool Runner |
posted Dec-08-2005 11:27 AM
I was posting on the other thread, but I thought I would use this thread to chart my progress if no one else minds. :-) So, I am starting the base building this week. My tentative goals are to stay strictly at or below MAF for 12 weeks and then my marathon will be 14 weeks after that and I will hopefully be ready to throw in some interval work. Tues- I ran 3 miles in 29:07 with my hr mostly around 159-160. My MAF is 158 so this wasn't quite right. Today- I ran 3 miles in 30 minutes and kept my heart rate below 158, mostly at around 145 until the last 1/2 mile. So, I will do the MAF test next week to see where I am. I am so excited to see if this works! My marathon is June 3rd. I am on the countdown. Thanks for all encouragement and help. I love reading all of your success stories. ------------------
Kelly
"There is no finish line."
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CSuzette
Cool Runner |
posted Dec-08-2005 01:42 PM
Do you know what his maximum heart rate is? (Like after a sprinting race?)You can also calculate your steady state at 70-75 percent of max. So, if his was 200 his steady state should be 140-149.
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msteed
Cool Runner |
posted Dec-08-2005 02:24 PM
quote:
Originally posted by kelmarker:
So, I will do the MAF test next week to see where I am. I am so excited to see if this works! My marathon is June 3rd. I am on the countdown.
Will you be running the Salt Lake City marathon? (Probably not since you're in Oregon, but since it's on June 3 I thought I'd ask.) I started "building my base" a week ago with low heart rate training, with an eye on the SLC marathon. It will be my first. Best of luck!
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Run Page Run
Cool Runner |
posted Dec-08-2005 02:26 PM
Hey everybody, My son is fifteen years old and is on his high school wrestling team. He has been runnning one mile a day at school since it started back and his time is about 6:30 but he can run it faster than this. He has gone runnning with me on a four miler before and faired well at an old mans pace. He is five feet nine inches tall and 120 lbs. He is tall and lean but he is hard as a a rock all over for they have been weight training at school some to. At school they figured up his % body fat at 4% and say it is unhealthy,but he eats good and always has. He isn't intentionally keeping his weight down,as a matter of fact he wants to get bigger and stronger. He was on the cross country team last year so we talk about running all the time since i like to do it to. Well now he wants to start running some distance and weight train to get in the best shape possible and grow as much as he can by next wrestling season. Well I have been explaining to him about the Maff training i read on here and periodization of running and resistance training and he wants to do the Maff training to build his aeorobic engine. I need help with two questions at the moment.....He will be 15 in Jan. so would his Maff be 165 sheesh....almost my max loll.....or should we drop it say to 150 for starts? Also he is like i said so tall and thin right now but hard as a rock should he limit his running to three times a week so he won't loose any more of the body fat he doesn't have or will the running increase his appetite like weight training does and compensate for it. He really is too thin to need to loose any.My wife and I both had real low percentage of body fat while teens also. Thanks for any insight into this......Page
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kelmarker
Cool Runner |
posted Dec-08-2005 06:26 PM
quote:
Originally posted by msteed:
Will you be running the Salt Lake City marathon? (Probably not since you're in Oregon, but since it's on June 3 I thought I'd ask.) I started "building my base" a week ago with low heart rate training, with an eye on the SLC marathon. It will be my first.Best of luck!
Hi msteed! That is cool that we are on the same time frame. I actually was considering Salt Lake when it was in April, but when they changed it to the same day as the Newport (OR) marathon, I had to go with Newport. The reason is that I ran Newport this past June for my first marathon, and it did not go as planned. (5:11) I am happy I finished, but I am ready to redeem my time! My husband's family is in Utah which is why I was looking at Salt Lake. Do you live there? How are you liking the heart rate training? What monitor do you use? Sorry so many questions! ------------------
Kelly
"There is no finish line."
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Run Page Run
Cool Runner |
posted Dec-08-2005 06:47 PM
Thanks C Suzette, we will check his MHR and adjust plus get more input. Thanks again, Page
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Dec-08-2005 07:00 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Run Page Run:
Hey everybody, My son is fifteen years old and is on his high school wrestling team. He has been runnning one mile a day at school since it started back and his time is about 6:30 but he can run it faster than this. He has gone runnning with me on a four miler before and faired well at an old mans pace. He is five feet nine inches tall and 120 lbs. He is tall and lean but he is hard as a a rock all over for they have been weight training at school some to. At school they figured up his % body fat at 4% and say it is unhealthy,but he eats good and always has. He isn't intentionally keeping his weight down,as a matter of fact he wants to get bigger and stronger. He was on the cross country team last year so we talk about running all the time since i like to do it to. Well now he wants to start running some distance and weight train to get in the best shape possible and grow as much as he can by next wrestling season. Well I have been explaining to him about the Maff training i read on here and periodization of running and resistance training and he wants to do the Maff training to build his aeorobic engine. I need help with two questions at the moment.....He will be 15 in Jan. so would his Maff be 165 sheesh....almost my max loll.....or should we drop it say to 150 for starts? Also he is like i said so tall and thin right now but hard as a rock should he limit his running to three times a week so he won't loose any more of the body fat he doesn't have or will the running increase his appetite like weight training does and compensate for it. He really is too thin to need to loose any.My wife and I both had real low percentage of body fat while teens also. Thanks for any insight into this......Page
Hi Page! I think he is actually too young to see specific low heart
rate results, at least whatever numbers to use would be questionable.
I think for your son, if you just have him run the miles at easy
conversational pace, that would be sufficient and he'll see some nice
aerobic results. I wouldn't push him to a specific heart rate at his
age. Also, perhaps you can encourage him to beef up his calorie
intake with much more protein and good fats? I'm not sure body fat
is something you can control without just eating a lot.
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MyRunningLog
MyStuff
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rogersb
Cool Runner |
posted Dec-08-2005 08:18 PM
Hello Kelly,
I am curious about the Newport Marathon and what you thought, I actually just moved here! I know the course and a little about the running group that participate. I even considered it, but I feel it is too big a goal for me right now altho half would be perfect.
Anyway, just thought I'd drop a line to you because I am interested in the HR training and was suprised to find someone who ran the marathon in my new hometown.
Tara Rogers------------------
Tara
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Run Page Run
Cool Runner |
posted Dec-08-2005 08:53 PM
Thanks Leitner, Yeah i think just getting him to run like you stated and regular is the key at this point. He eats proteins and fats like crazy already and he has grown so much in the last year but mostly up.....he needs to just fill out some. Thanks again, Page
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kelmarker
Cool Runner |
posted Dec-09-2005 10:15 AM
So, I ran outside with a friend for the first 3 miles. I still don't have an actual heart rate monitor, but we were going fairly slow. It just felt good to be outside. Then I went into the gym to finish my workout. I strapped on their monitor and did 3 more miles. The readings were very erratic. I ended up running about 11 mpm and staying around 150, although it would randomly jump to 170 and 180. I have to admit I am a little nervous about this whole training and afraid to "lose" the speed I worked hard all year to gain. I am trusting all the personal anecdotes and I am going to keep researching. It just seems counterintuitive that I will ever feel comfortable doing an 8 miunute mile again. Does that make sense? I do think it is a good time for me though because it is winter and I want to give my legs a little break, and the slower miles are definitely less pounding.Tara- Newport is a beautiful town. The weather was perfect and the scenery amazing! It is a pretty small race and an out and back, which are the only 2 negative aspects. It is pretty flat, which is nice. I just had a bad run day, and a marathon is the worst time for that to happen! What brought you to Newport? I am definitely looking forward to redeeming myself. I hope I am ready! ------------------
Kelly
"There is no finish line."
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portlander
Cool Runner |
posted Dec-09-2005 11:24 AM
Leitnerj - On another thread you said:
quote:
There have been an endless number of people who have made statements such as "All I did was sprinkled in a few runs here and there where I didn't worry about my heart rate and it didn't work" and "I did all of my runs at less than 75% max heart rate and it didn't work".
My MAF heartrate is approximately 80% of max (age 32, max=189, MAF=153). I hadn't used my monitor for a long time, so I experimented this week with some different paces. MAF-10 is very easy, about 10:00/mile. MAF-15 is kind of unbearable, if I don't watch the monitor constantly I will unconsciously speed up. MAF is a pretty decent pace, and actually feels like I'm going too fast, at least according to the subjective descriptions in this thread. I am racing a 5K this weekend, and then I will start my official basebuilding period. So, anyway before I get started I just want to clarify: does the MAF formula trump the 75% comment you made above?
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rogersb
Cool Runner |
posted Dec-09-2005 01:49 PM
Hey kelly,
I lived in Portland for the last year and enjoyed myself (altho I worked downtown and Never ran outside, but only on a treadmill at Bally's Gym). my fiancee actually grew up here and wanted to return for a much better job offer and to be closer to family. I have been running solely outdoors for the past 6 months because I'm here and love every minute of it. I run to the lighthouse and all around my neighborhood. It seems living in a small town makes it easier for me to just walk out the door and run, mainly to visit the ocean during the run. I'm sure if I had stayed in Portland I would have evntually headed outside, but I probably would have ended up running on sidewalks, or just along the waterfront, so I am glad for the move.
I am certainly not ready for a marathon in June. But I plan to be there and cheer and help out. I wish you the best of luck and hopefully the Heart Rate training will help with your marathon experience this time around!Tara ------------------
Tara
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Dec-09-2005 06:38 PM
quote:
Originally posted by portlander:
I am racing a 5K this weekend, and then I will start my official basebuilding period. So, anyway before I get started I just want to clarify: does the MAF formula trump the 75% comment you made above?
Hey portlander. No, it does not. The point is that (at least according
to Maffetone's empirical testing), the MAF heart rate is not a percentage
of max heart rate - it is an experimentally obtained formula that incorporates
both age and fitness. For some people, it may give a number that is
60% of max heart rate and others it may be 80% or possibly more.
However, I do believe it is better to be conservative and try to spend
most of your mileage well below MAF. If you are strict with it and if you've
been running a while (I think that there's some question as to the progress
with very new runners, but it's not clear), if you start at a heart rate where
your pace is uncomfortably slow, eventually you will get to a reasonable,
and possibly relatively fast, pace. The people who ran at < 75% had
no basis for running 75%, they just picked the number because it was
slower than they were running. For many people 75% HRMax is right
in the "neutral zone" between aerobic and anaerobic zones, not low
enough heart rate for significant aerobic benefit, and not fast enough
for a tempo-type benefit. If I were you, since you may be on the high side, I would shoot for
the MAF-15, letting it go to MAF-5 on hills. One cross-check you can
do is to see how fast your heart rate drifts during a run. If you find
that your pace is slowing down by over 2 min/mi in a 5 mile run, then
you should target a lower heart rate. There's no question that an
empirical formula can break down - in this case, the only risk is
that it can provide a MAF heart rate that is higher than it should be,
so you're best off keeping as low as possible.
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MyRunningLog
MyStuff
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Dec-09-2005 06:44 PM
quote:
Originally posted by portlander:
I am racing a 5K this weekend, and then I will start my official basebuilding period. So, anyway before I get started I just want to clarify: does the MAF formula trump the 75% comment you made above?
Hey portlander. No, it does not. The point is that (at least according
to Maffetone's empirical testing), the MAF heart rate is not a percentage
of max heart rate - it is an experimentally obtained formula that incorporates
both age and fitness. For some people, it may give a number that is
60% of max heart rate and others it may be 80% or possibly more.
However, I do believe it is better to be conservative and try to spend
most of your mileage well below MAF. If you are strict with it and if you've
been running a while (I think that there's some question as to the progress
with very new runners, but it's not clear), if you start at a heart rate where
your pace is uncomfortably slow, eventually you will get to a reasonable,
and possibly relatively fast, pace. The people who ran at < 75% had
no basis for running 75%, they just picked the number because it was
slower than they were running. For many people 75% HRMax is right
in the "neutral zone" between aerobic and anaerobic zones, not low
enough heart rate for significant aerobic benefit, and not fast enough
for a tempo-type benefit. If I were you, since you may be on the high side, I would shoot for
the MAF-15, letting it go to MAF-5 on hills. One cross-check you can
do is to see how fast your heart rate drifts during a run. If you find
that your pace is slowing down by over 2 min/mi in a 5 mile run, then
you should target a lower heart rate. There's no question that an
empirical formula can break down - in this case, the only risk is
that it can provide a MAF heart rate that is higher than it should be,
so you're best off keeping as low as possible.
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MyRunningLog
MyStuff
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jjwaverly42
Cool Runner |
posted Dec-09-2005 09:49 PM
In the "Stretching The Bounds Of Usage for The HRM" category:Here in northern Rhode Island, we got socked with a snowstorm. Since I'm in a aerobic phase, I wore my HRM while shoveling today. It is indeed an aerobic acticity if you go slow and steady. Averaged about 10-15 below MAF for nearly 2 frickin hours of shoveling. I have no goals with this. I'm not looking for improvement of any kind. I just want a snowblower. --JImmy
"Aerobic Snowshoveler" My Running World
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StealthRunner
Cool Runner |
posted Dec-09-2005 10:25 PM
Hey Jimmy- No thank you. You can have your snowblower. Today it was 70 degrees in Southern California. Maybe tomorrow I should use my HRM when I'm raking all the leaves that have come down.  I think that it would be more interesting to wear it to work!
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leitnerj
Cool Runner |
posted Dec-10-2005 07:36 AM
quote:
Originally posted by jjwaverly42:
In the "Stretching The Bounds Of Usage for The HRM" category:Here in northern Rhode Island, we got socked with a snowstorm. Since I'm in a aerobic phase, I wore my HRM while shoveling today. It is indeed an aerobic acticity if you go slow and steady. Averaged about 10-15 below MAF for nearly 2 frickin hours of shoveling. I have no goals with this. I'm not looking for improvement of any kind. I just want a snowblower. --JImmy
"Aerobic Snowshoveler" My Running World
The snowblower cuts things about 10 beats down, except when
you're doing maintenance on it or trying to find the right oil and
gas mixture. I find myself having to pour very slowly to just stay
right at MAF.
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MyRunningLog
MyStuff
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jjwaverly42
Cool Runner |
posted Dec-10-2005 09:21 AM
quote:
Originally posted by StealthRunner:
Hey Jimmy- No thank you. You can have your snowblower. Today it was 70 degrees in Southern California. Maybe tomorrow I should use my HRM when I'm raking all the leaves that have come down. I think that it would be more interesting to wear it to work!
Come on, Stealth. It's always 70 degrees in Southern California. Come get some variety! Actually, variety is sometimes overrated. Enjoy, and I'll run on my treadmill dreaming of running wild through fields. --Jimmy My Running World
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jjwaverly42
Cool Runner |
posted Dec-10-2005 09:25 AM
quote:
Originally posted by leitnerj:
The snowblower cuts things about 10 beats down, except when
you're doing maintenance on it or trying to find the right oil and
gas mixture. I find myself having to pour very slowly to just stay
right at MAF.
"Pouring For Endurance" by Earl Viscoustone
--Jimmy
My Running World
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Ksabbo
Cool Runner |
posted Dec-10-2005 11:08 AM
quote:
:
Averaged about 10-15 below MAF for nearly 2 frickin hours of shoveling. I have no goals with this. I'm not looking for improvement of any kind. I just want a snowblower.
LOL This is great! Does it really matter where the aerobic activity comes from when we are challenged with extending circumstances? I'm in Maryland and we got his with a mere 4" of snow on Thursday night. I did my Friday AM run on treadmill since kiddies were off of school. This AM tried to get out for my long run but there were too many patches of ice on road. I have fallen waaaayyyyy too many times in the past and decided to head inside to the treadmill. My treadmill is acting up and the belt kept slipping. I decided to move over to my pathetic $5.00 goodwill stationary bike. Since I don't have much bike experience, I managed 40 minutes "in the zone" before I became concerned about being able to dance tonight when going out with hubbie 
Karen
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Tchuck
Cool Runner |
posted Dec-10-2005 11:38 AM
quote:
Originally posted by leitnerj:
For many people 75% HRMax is right
in the "neutral zone" between aerobic and anaerobic zones, not low
enough heart rate for significant aerobic benefit, and not fast enough
for a tempo-type benefit.[/B]
Hey Jessie, I think my max HR is around 182-185. My MAF HR is 146. I comfortably run at 75% which is a HR of 138 for me. I try to do first have of my runs below this and last part of run at about 138 and it feels awesome. Not that hard. I feel like I am working the MAF system while still getting a good work out based on the%. Does this contradict your quote above?
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Run Page Run
Cool Runner |
posted Dec-10-2005 11:43 AM
Yeah, Maff at it's best, I ran a mere 40 mins at the track last night and and with a Maff of 136 -10, I stay in between these two magical figures. In my mind i was flying around the track to try and make matters feel better but the lone lady that was walking disprooved my theory. It took me three laps to overtake her at my blazing pace and i could see the elation on her face as if she knew she was the fastest walker in Opelika Al. or I was the slowest runner in America. I'm glad I was bundled up due to the cold so maybe it made me look more obese than i am and gave me an excuse in her mind rather than her possibly thinking I'm just a fat, Lazy person just a mere step ahead of couch potatoes. I felt good the whole time phsically but my ego was being bruised with every step.....but i persisted with this torturous means, with expectations of an awesome final Finish.
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StealthRunner
Cool Runner |
posted Dec-10-2005 02:56 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Run Page Run:
I felt good the whole time phsically but my ego was being bruised with every step.....but i persisted with this torturous means, with expectations of an awesome final Finish.[/B]
Ah yes, I think that 98% of the people on this thread have felt the same way. Yesterday I went and "ran" the TM at the gym. It was my first run since running a marathon this last Sunday. My resting HR was still about 5 beats above normal, so I knew that it was going to be real slow going. I decided to wear my marathon cap so people would think that I was just still sore from going 26.2 miles. Fortunately for me there were no runners. I did get a few strange looks from some of the walkers, but they don't count! As a note, I found that my HR has dropped 10 beats at the same pace I was running before my hamstring injury last February. I'm sure that it is probably more than that since I don't feel that I have fully recovered from the marathon.
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