posted Nov-06-2005 08:07 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by dogsbody111:
OK - so I'm going to give this Maffetone thing a try. I'll post my times every Sunday after my long run, as an experiment. I've been running for about a year, I've run a couple of half marathons this Fall and my goal is to try a marathon next spring.

My plan is to do all my runs until Christmas under MAF, and then I will re-evaluate.

My target is 130-135 bpm - I am 44 years old and with no adjustments my MAF is 136.

Todays run (in the rain) was 2 hours at 134 bpm average. My pace was a sluglike 12:07/mile, starting at about 11:28 and rising slowly during the run. The last half hour was ainfully slow. I will try and do splits for next week (I just bought a new Garmin 301 and forgot to set it up for laps).

cheers all,

Bill

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welcome to the club! 12:07 is not bad for the first one, if you can
believe it! it should get better quickly ...

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posted Nov-06-2005 08:17 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by bluecru:
I did my 1st MAF TM run yesterday. Started low purposely @ 4.0 mph a 15 min mile! A 3 mile run. I gradually had to slow down to 3.7 near the end to keep my HR even close at 132. I'm trusting that the pace will get better. On the other hand my l did feel kind of like that I did "nothing". Refreshed and relaxed. Legs felt a bit different I imagine due to the different stride. So, when does one know when to increase the pace or distance? I'm figuring if I increased the distance right now I'd be walking. Thanks.

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That's where I was in May. You increase pace as your heart rate starts
to go down in subsequent runs. You increase distance more as you
desire, have time, and your body allows. Early on, you can likely get
away with adding a mile or so each week, or you might want to follow
the 10% rule. It's really trial and error. Good luck!

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posted Nov-06-2005 10:35 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by bluecru:
On the other hand my l did feel kind of like that I did "nothing". Refreshed and relaxed..

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That's the best part! My training partner and I did most of our runs at what was a MAF pace for me (she doesn't have an HRM but her talking ability has increased as our training went on). Anyway, we did up to 11 mile runs and felt great the next day. Even after our first half we felt pretty good.

Contrast that to the speedy run I did with a friend last Wednesday. Easily my fastest run ever, my hips are still a little tender if I sit for too long!

I was "running" mid-14's when I first started. I did my half in 9:02's, yes, above MAF but I did my first 5K at the same pace in March and thought I was going to pass out.

Keep going!
 

posted Nov-07-2005 05:25 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by diane143:
That's the best part! My training partner and I did most of our runs at what was a MAF pace for me (she doesn't have an HRM but her talking ability has increased as our training went on). Anyway, we did up to 11 mile runs and felt great the next day. Even after our first half we felt pretty good.

Contrast that to the speedy run I did with a friend last Wednesday. Easily my fastest run ever, my hips are still a little tender if I sit for too long!

I was "running" mid-14's when I first started. I did my half in 9:02's, yes, above MAF but I did my first 5K at the same pace in March and thought I was going to pass out.

Keep going!

---

You're describing one of the key effects of this type of training, once
you've passed "that point." That is, once you've established the
strong aerobic base, even periodic runs that are at 10, 20, even 30
beats higher heart rate (such as your HM), as long as they are well
into the aerobic range, still feel good!

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[This message has been edited by leitnerj (edited Nov-07-2005).]
 

posted Nov-07-2005 10:25 AM         

I ran an 8.5 miler Friday with an Avg HR of about 137 and, naturally, finished feeling like I'd done nothing...

That evening, though, as I was driving around in my car, I noticed a distinct weariness in my left leg when I had to work the clutch - so, these runs are fatiguing something! Maybe I'm hitting those atrohpied slow-twitch fibers?

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[This message has been edited by batfish (edited Nov-07-2005).]

[This message has been edited by batfish (edited Nov-07-2005).]
 

posted Nov-07-2005 06:19 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by batfish:
I'm not doing Maff, but am base building and keeping HR below 140. Yes, it's slow, yes, it feels like I'm doing nothing, but I did notice something this weekend...

I ran an 8.5 miler Friday with an Avg HR of about 137 and, naturally, finished feeling like I'd done nothing...

That evening, though, as I was driving around in my car, I noticed a distinct weariness in my left leg when I had to work the clutch - so, these runs are fatiguing something! Maybe I'm hitting those atrohpied slow-twitch fibers?

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could be - you'll notice for the first few weeks a new "cross-training"
kind of a feeling, using muscles you hadn't really put to use before.

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posted Nov-07-2005 10:10 PM            

7:55/131, 7:16/143, 7:27/144, 7:39/145, 7:54/145,
8:08/145, 8:12/144, 5:29(.67 mile)/144
(time 1 hr, dist. 7.67 mi, HRavg=143)

Seemed to climb a bit fast, possibly because I didn't drink anything.
In either case, it seems to climb faster at higher speeds.
Nonetheless, average pace was 7:49/mile at avg HR of 143.
So my second mile was now down to 7:16. Can I get it down below
7 in the next couple of months?

(Improvements are subtle at this point, here's where I was
on Aug. 29:
8:58/136, 8:19/141, 8:18/140, 8:18/138, 8:12/139,
7:52/142, 7:52/142, 2:14(.28 mile)/141
time=1hr, dist = 7.28 mi, HRavg = 140)

Next test will be the 50 miler in two weeks. Can I cut a good half
hour or more off my time last year? I have no doubt I can, but there's
a lot of time for a lot of things to go wrong over 50 miles!

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posted Nov-07-2005 11:54 PM         

I have let my HR drift up 10-15bpm towards the end of my long runs of 18-22 miles. I feel like I don't have too much of a choice since the marathon that I have signed up for is in four weeks. I am now able to run my shorter runs below MAF. I believe the long runs have helped. As for the marathon, it's going to be slow. Do you have any taper ideas/tips you can give me?

Good luck on your 50!
 

posted Nov-08-2005 05:26 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by StealthRunner:
Hi Jesse- I have a question for you. Are you trying to run mostly at or below your MAF, or are you doing any portions of your training at race pace?

I have let my HR drift up 10-15bpm towards the end of my long runs of 18-22 miles. I feel like I don't have too much of a choice since the marathon that I have signed up for is in four weeks. I am now able to run my shorter runs below MAF. I believe the long runs have helped. As for the marathon, it's going to be slow. Do you have any taper ideas/tips you can give me?

Good luck on your 50!

---

I've been running mostly below MAF, but recently I have been letting
things go about 5-10 beats higher on the very large hills (although
there's little tendency to drift up on the hills anymore). About every
3rd or 4th long run, I will do a more intense last several miles,
generally at race pace. I would suggest you do that a few times
in the period between about 5 weeks and 10 weeks before the
marathon. I'm probably not a good one to ask about tapering!
Given that my marathon PR came after probably my biggest mileage
week ever and just one week after doing 3 marathons. There's little
doubt that it probably would have been a lot better had I actually tapered,
but I've gotten so used to the accumulated mileage and back-to-back
long runs, that I think I've been doing the "stretched-out" version of
interval training, with relatively quick recoveries. For me, the taper
would be just making sure I keep the intensity down, cut back mileage
just a bit, very easy run of a few miles the day before, no running two
days before, etc.

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posted Nov-09-2005 01:36 PM            

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Sue
 

posted Nov-09-2005 04:36 PM         

quote:

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Originally posted by scoobydoobie:
...I have one quick question especially for you marathoners; how often months/miles do you replace your shoes?

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The figure that I've seen most often for changing shoes is 300 miles.
 

posted Nov-09-2005 05:43 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by scoobydoobie:
I have one quick question especially for you marathoners; how often months/miles do you replace your shoes?[/B]

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I can usually tell when my shoes are going flat. They just seem to loose their cushioning. A knee or hip will then start to complain, so I will change them out. I just got rid of a favorite pair of Loco's that lasted me a good 500 miles. They work for me. I love them.
I'm glad you are back running. Post often to let us know how you are doing.

 

posted Nov-09-2005 06:22 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by scoobydoobie:
Let me first congratulate you all on the progress you are all seeing, as I remember what it was like starting a maffetone style program from scratch. I first tried it about 4 years ago and was disgusted with it like everyone seems to be at first. Once I got into it, I couldn't belive how great it was. I don't have any good numbers from back then, but there were definite improvements with my longest runs usally only being 6 miles. I mainly used it for sprint and olympic distance traithlons. Needless to say I haven't kept up and am starting a new cycle. I did an hour run last night and was under my MAF for 57 minutes with approx 12 min/miles. I'm just glad my MAF number is 154, I'd hate to be any slower at this point. (I'm 26 and injury free after battling anterior tibial compartment syndrome issues 2 years ago.) Reading all your stories convinced to start putting in time and mileage and my girlfriend and I are going to do a half marathon next spring/summer (my longest run ever was 10 miles.) I have one quick question especially for you marathoners; how often months/miles do you replace your shoes?

---

That's great to hear - I hope you have even more success this time.
Back when I ran prior to MAF training, I would change my shoes around
every 350 miles, because that seemed to be the point when things
started to bother me. However, I've been re-evaluating this now that
I'm putting away so much mileage and I'm going to push shoes to
500 miles or so. After about 400-450, I transition shoes to the short
distance run pile.

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posted Nov-09-2005 06:35 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by SueT48:
I am so happy to have found this forum. I've been running low mileage (15 -20 mpw) for many years and only started doing any distance running in the last year or so. I acquired a heart rate monitor in March and have been using it ever since. I ran my first marathon in October (Chicago). My heart rate was in the low to mid 180's for most of the second half of the marathon. In reviewing my heart rate stats since March, I realize I've never had an "easy" run. I started a Maffetone-like program a week or so after the marathon - I'm in my 4th week of training. Using the Karvonen calculations ( the one size fits all 180 minus age philosophy of Maffetone doesn't make any sense to me) my 65% is 143 and my 70% is 149. I started with the higher number and dropped to the lower number when I started to see some progress. Last week (3 weeks into the training) I was doing a 4.5 to 5.0 mph pace keeping my heart rate below 145. Sunday during my long run I couldn't keep my heart rate below 145 without walking (3.7 to 4.0 pace). I walked for the better part of 2.5 hours. I attributed that to dehydration. Tuesday was essentially a repeat of Sunday - I jogged at a 3.9 to 4.0 pace to keep my heart rate below 145. I guess there was a slight improvement as I could at least jog and not walk.
Is it normal to have periodic setbacks like this? Thanks to everyone who has posted on this thread - you folks are inspiring!

---

Since you've been trying such an approach for only 3 weeks, I wouldn't
call a single day's run a setback. In the early stages, checking any
more frequently than every 2 weeks or so, you will see peaks and
troughs and later on, things will stabilize more. Also, for me the
Karvonen formula at 70% gives a heart rate about 15 beats higher than
the MAF heart rate, so I'm not sure whether you can expect the same
effects. In reality, the only approach to personalize what your training
zones are to ensure that you are "low enough" (and I don't believe there's
a "too low") is to have vo2max test, determine your anaerobic threshold,
and use percentages of that for your zones. That will fully account for
your physiology and current level of fitness. There's no doubt that the
Maffetone numbers can cause much frustration when starting out, and
for some even after a couple of months, so it's certainly understandable
why you would want to start a bit higher and try to work your way down.
That's basically Hadd's approach for those who feel that the initial
pace is too slow. I think the number one priority should always be to
enjoy your runs; everything else is secondary. Good luck - keep us
informed of your progress.

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posted Nov-09-2005 06:37 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by StealthRunner:
I ran an eleven miler this morning in the rain. I just had to post and let everyone know that I finally made it up the steepest hill on my route without walking any of it. There is a section of the run that starts with a grade for ¼ mile then levels off for ½ mile before going into a gradual incline for another 1 ½ miles. It then goes up this steep grade for ¼ mile before leveling off. This is a favorite place to run for all the local runners. I made it to the top at six beats above MAF. I am thinking about doing some hill repeats on it sometime. Saturday is my last 20 miler before my taper. I’m wondering if I should go further at the end by walking. I think it would help me mentally for the marathon.

---

that is excellent - it's fantastic to see you making such excellent
progress. It is such a key milestone to finally be able to climb that
hill without walking to keep the HR down. I think you'll start to knock
off one achievement after another now.

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posted Nov-10-2005 05:16 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by wvdad:
i havent posted for a while so here it goes.
I gained some the first month but the second month,i saw no improvement and i started to put on a few pounds. Disgusted at the weight gain, i decided to up the speed . For two weeks now i have ran 2 long runs under maff and 1 short fast run and a longer fast run a week. With the faster runs i am now seeing a huge improvement on my maff days. I started running 2 yrs ago. My thoughts on why the maff worked so well for you and other athletes is that you had the body and the history of higher hr running. Could a person with no running history benefit from maff like you did, or do they need to sweat and get the body acclimated to running and a sustained high hr first, and then slow down and build endurance??
So far i have noticed much gain by running some maff and some speed.

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Well, you never know. The first time I tried this sort of thing, I had
been running a bit less than a year and a half, but I had been running
about 50-60 miles per week, all at high heart rates. Multi-zone training
can be very effective and if you get most of your mileage in well into
the aerobic zone, you may see some good progress. This article
touches on the "new runner" subject: Base Training.

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posted Nov-10-2005 10:37 AM            

Diane
 

posted Nov-12-2005 11:16 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Run Page Run:
My Maff >>>180 -44 = 136, But, I have been taking meds for ten years for depression/ anxiety so - 10 = 126. Well lets say i minus five for i had a back surgery last Feb. = 121. O.K. I have been running since june after walking from Feb to June...and after the first month ran fairly slow by my breathing. What about setting my upper zone at 136 and my lower zone at 121 or 126? I can run ten min miles on flat ground at 136 or less and 11 to 12 at 126 or less. Thanks in advance for any replies....Page

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There are two sides to this coin. The first is, if I were to respond as
"Maffetone, the coach" I would say your MAF is 121 (126 probably more
likely - I don't know that the double whammy is required unless your back
surgery was due to overtraining). Given that, you stay under that completely, no matter what, at least during the basebuilding stage.
However, one has to wonder how "global" the equation is that tells you
to subtract for meds and whether it applies to all meds, or specific
meds or whatever. Hence, one might question this. On the one hand,
the best results can be obtained by training at the lowest heart rates,
but on the other hand, in the early stages this can add to the frustration
and what good is it if you are mostly walking? You might try the 136,
keeping, say 130 or less as a goal (I always try to stay at least 5-10
beats under anyway), but you have to keep in the back of your mind
that you are not following the guidance as stated and that you may have
to make an adjustment if it's not working.

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