posted Oct-15-2005 02:14 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by StealthRunner:
Hi Jesse-
Congratulations on your triple marathon! I bet that you will do it again next year and get under that 12 hour time goal. I really can't believe that you're running another marathon tomorrow. You’re turning into a real aerobic running machine! Way to go, Jesse. Did you buy the book, "Slow Burn", that ultrasteve suggested? It has some very good training and diet advice in it. I hope ultrasteve reads this and chimes in about the muscle testing technique. I would like to know if he has used it or not. It’s a very interesting technique. I would like to try it, but my husband may think that I’m nuts! But hey, after my 3 ½ hour run last week, he probably does already! Good luck on that marathon-Cathy

---

Thanks, Cathy. Haven't bought the book yet, but I will. Everyone
thinks I'm nuts, so I must be. I literally have at least half a dozen people
ask me every day if I've considered therapy. That's super that you've
gotten to 3 1/2 hr run! I don't think I'll be doing the Tahoe triple again
next year unless I can someone bring the family painlessly. Otherwise,
it's too much time away.

So, not only did I hit my PR in the 10k this Wednesday at 43:05, today
in the Baltimore I PR'ed as well, in 10 miles, half marathon, and full
marathon, although when the temperature creeped into the 70s, the
last 7 or 8 miles became brutal for me and I lost a significant chunk of
the time I had banked. I hit 10 miles at 76 minutes (previous best was
just under 78), 13.1 miles at 1:42, and finished, painfully, at just over
3:47 (I had been on pace for sub 3:30 until about mile 18 or 19 where
I lost a lot of pace). My hammies have had enough now! All new PRs
even after running 3 marathons on 3 straight days one week before,
and no speed work! I must admit that this has become more of a
scientific experiment and less of a test for myself of how much I can
improve. I'm such a geek. I watched the "4 minutes" movie when I
was in Tahoe and now I feel a lot like Roger Bannister, minus the talent.

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posted Oct-15-2005 08:45 PM            

I know you weren't suggesting that I join I running group...I never took your post that way all!! Not for a minute. I knew your intent was for me experiment with shorter races, timed, and certified. I agree.

I am getting stronger week-by-week. I have no lingering ITB issues, and that is such a wonder for me...... I am concentrating on strengthing my legs, time on the road, and enjoying running more consistently again, and watching my HR. I'm so glad I have the knowledge of Maffetone with me.

Today I ran next to my husband who is a power walker. He did a route that is hill after hill. This was interesting. I was over my Maff by 10 on hills, which I didn't think that was all that bad, and I did this for 5 miles of up and down hills. I used this run as one of more effort. It felt good, and I didn't feel stressed at all. Now that I did that, tomorrow I will run UNDER Maff. The rest of the week alternating time on my feet at Maff, and one longer run alittle below Maff. I think I have a plan. I don't know how good it is, but it's something for me to follow.

How are your Hammy's??? Do you have a foam roller that you can roll them out on??? It feel soooo...good. Have a glass of wine when you roll!!

Kris/Boston..
 

posted Oct-15-2005 09:46 PM            

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posted Oct-16-2005 08:31 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by StealthRunner:
So Jesse- you ran a triple then PR'd a marathon a week later. Then after the marathon you were able to ride a bike for 20 miles and walk for another 5. You're not crazy, you're in great shape. What's your next goal? Are you gearing up for a 100 miler yet?
I cut my long run back to nine miles this week. Next time I'll try another 16 miler. I had a runner pass me today and tell me that I was going too slow. Grrrrrrrr. So much for the ego. Oh well. I did notice one thing that was interesting to me anyway. I could tell when I was just over my MAF because I started to feel better. I think my body was trying to burn sugar for fuel instead of fat. I have to admit that the last couple of days my diet has really been bad. Thursday was way to stressful at work and I never was able to eat. They had me driving to three sites to scan! I think I ended up spending more time driving than scanning. 97 miles. A total day from h---. I was so stressed out by the end of the day, I woke up at two in the morning and couldn't go back to sleep. Friday, of course, was a write off. I ended up running on coffee and sugar just to stay awake. Gee, I wonder why my run wasn't up to par today. Lesson learned. Back to the health food store for some good organic veggies and a nice piece of salmon. Thanks for letting me vent. I feel much better now. Cathy

---

What a pain with all of the scurrying around at work. That can
take a toll. Too bad you can't run back and forth between the
different locations! That's what Dean Karnazes would do.

Ironically, the 5 mile walk home in my cycling shoes put several
blisters on one of my toes that wasn't there after the marathon!
It's a good excuse for a rest day today.

I haven't had that 100 mile urge just yet. I'm sure it's coming.
Ironman is what's in my sights now. And maybe I'll put a little
bit of focus on honing my marathon time for a BQ within a couple
of years.

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posted Oct-16-2005 01:46 PM         

Jesse-In LA, that's a death wish! It's bad enough to drive with so many stupid drivers on the road. Reminds me of a time when a driver passed me on my right hand side and held up a sign at me. It read, "You don't belong in the fast lane." I was only going about 80mph! Stupid driver. He then proceeded to cross the entire freeway to take an off ramp. Idiot!!!

So that's what you're up to. I should have guessed. You have made such fast progress with your running. Do you think that all the extra cross training has helped? I remember that ultrasteve said to do something every day. I think that he is right.

When I was younger, I used to belong to a mountain bike club. Maybe it's about time for me to get that bike back out. It would make me very happy right now to be able to run a marathon in under 5 hours. Do you think that I can do it? I have scheduled another 16-18 miler next weekend. I'll see how it goes and let you know. Maybe you can give me some ideas. The marathon is in March.

Good running to all-Cathy

[This message has been edited by StealthRunner (edited Oct-16-2005).]
 

posted Oct-16-2005 06:24 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by StealthRunner:

So that's what you're up to. I should have guessed. You have made such fast progress with your running. Do you think that all the extra cross training has helped? I remember that ultrasteve said to do something every day. I think that he is right.

When I was younger, I used to belong to a mountain bike club. Maybe it's about time for me to get that bike back out. It would make me very happy right now to be able to run a marathon in under 5 hours. Do you think that I can do it? I have scheduled another 16-18 miler next weekend. I'll see how it goes and let you know. Maybe you can give me some ideas. The marathon is in March.

Good running to all-Cathy

[This message has been edited by StealthRunner (edited Oct-16-2005).]

---

I think you certainly can do it as long as you can stick with the
training. There's little doubt. I think the cross-training plays
a major role. I definitely do something every day. My rest
day has a 2-2.5 mile swim and a 20 mile bike ride. But I do
everything easy - when I return, I'm not tired. Do I feel guilty
as some people suggest. No.

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posted Oct-17-2005 08:48 AM            

I then went out for my run of 2.5 hours here in SWNH where all the flooding has been. I started by walking for 5 minutes, and started my slow jog on a gradual downhill, making sure I eased into my Mittleman Slow Burn numbers or MAF HR pace. After several miles I turned onto a trail section (which always raises my HR a bit) so I slowed down and even walked on the hills, looking over at a field of cows, who were looking at me going by. It was so wet in there I was knee deep in the water at times. When I got back on the dirt road about in the middle of my run, I felt just great! I jogged along and realized I was moving pretty good, maybe about an 8mpm pace on a very slight downhill stretch of road. I looked down at my watch and saw 129....that is almost 10 beats below my top MEP number, which is considered your most efficient pace by Mittleman standards. Anyway, I cruised along at this comfortable effort and eventually got to my road and walked the last 10 minutes to ease my HR back down slowly. You never would have known I had just run 2.5 hours, I felt great and when I got into the house, my wife asked how it was and I told her how much more I now enjoy running since I've increased my aerobic engine and made running more like playtime, than a workout...Life is good!

Oh...She has started to read Slow Burn last night

Steve

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http://community.webshots.com/user/ultrastevep
 

posted Oct-17-2005 09:14 AM            

Stu Mittleman is an athlete who used Maffetone as a coach to become one of the top ultrarunners in the world, similar to Mark Allen did in triathlons...He held the american record in the 100 mile run, which still stands, I believe.

Stu has taken the Maffetone theory and fine tuned it, allowing an athlete to recognize his/her best pace by starting with the low HR training, getting used to the feel of it and increasing or decreasing the numbers to fine tune them to you. The formula is good to get started and to heal your body from all the fast training and excesses in a fast paced life, then you can decide whether this is all you want/need or if you want more, he tells you how, by using the different ranges of your HR to increase performance. 90% of my training is slow and comfortable...in the Spring I will begin to run tempo runs and fast paced hikes in the mountains to prepare for Hardrock.
He also tells you to include weight training to increase you core body strength...I agree with that, especially if you are planning on a marathon or ultra. You do not need your core to be your weak point.

Cathy, about that muscle testing thing...at first I thought it was witch doctor stuff, but then I discussed it with my Chiropractor, who is trained in Kinesiology (Maffetone is a Chiro/Kinesiologist). He put something on my stomach and had me put my hand over it...he wouldn't tell me what it was, but did the arm strength thing described in Slow Burn, my arm could not hold back his pressing, no matter how hard I tried. The object was a chunk of tobacco that my body was resisting. Then with the tobacco still on my stomach, he told me to think of a nice thought, something that made me happy. I did and he could not force my arm down. That was to prove the mind over matter theory, which he was telling me I could use during a race when I'm feeling down.
So is it bunk? I don't know, but it certainly worked that time. I even thought that maybe he knew because it was tobacco that he pressed harder, but this is not a big man and he was able to easily press my arm down without any resistance. I was trying my hardest to not let him do this, but he did easily.

Be honest with yourself with your training and HR and you will be a happier person

Steve
 

posted Oct-17-2005 08:01 PM            

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posted Oct-17-2005 09:52 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
Thanks for sharing that, Steve. I think I've liked the writings
of all of the Maffetone's derivatives, disciples, former "students",
etc., a little bit better than his because they are all a bit less
eccentric and more tailored to the individual.

---

I'll second that LEITNER. Though I don' t take the time to analyze the *deepness* of the meaning, I like Maffetone, and the simplicity...let's everything just flow.

I've read the other, and it makes sense, too. But maybe STU is more for the *advanced* runner. I have yet to get there.

Hey, as long as we are all running, and feeling good with what we have chosen to do....life is good. It's nice to just share what we have found that works and relate that to each other.

posted Oct-23-2005 02:32 PM            

I got a stress fracture last November when I started running which put me out of commission til late December. In Feb I discovered one of these threads and since I was doing some TM work I decided I'd try it. I'm not a fast runner to begin with but I was doing 10's - it was work, but I was doing them. I started the HR training on the TM at 4.5mph and was doing 14+. Yikes. But each time I did it, it took a few minutes longer before I had to walk, and I was finally able to up the MPH.

Enter a training partner. Having cabin fever, I had no problem running with someone outside. Of course we mostly ran unless one of us was having some sort of pain, and we did a few walks on one hilly loop. She is a bit slower than me so I found that I was doing HR training of sorts. We trained all summer together - and what a humid summer it was! - to "finish" our season at a half marathon in early October. I ran a 1:58:26 and she finished in 2:07:xx Needless to say, we're both thrilled with our progress, as self-proclaimed "old ladies who can't run"!

So here are some of my stats from the summer. In addition to the running, I also competed in 7 mountain bike races, did some road riding, and did 2 kayak-mtb-trail run sprint tris. I have watched my HR come down on everything.

I started in January at 23 miles per month and peaked in September with 101. My max weekly mileage was 27, most in August till the HM were in the 20-25mpw range. I found that my bike miles suffered a bit in September, but I won my last mtb race (a mere 6 days before the half) so they couldn't have suffered *that* much!

My training partner and I felt that we must've been doing something right, as we rarely felt sore after a run, even a long one. I have a hard time knowing what I am capable of and tend to go out on a race slow, and finish so strong I guess I could have done it a little faster. The half was probably the only exception to that rule, although I did feel great at the end and did a 3 mile run a few days later with no soreness.

I don't have a lot of HR stats till early May when DH bought me a Forerunner. Wonderful device, although a little off at times. I also replaced my dying HRM watch with a model that does max and averages in the late summer so I have bike race stats as well.

I competed in 5 5K's (two were the off-road tris), one 10K and one half marathon.

3/12, 5K, snowing, time 27:57. DH pulled me through this and I thought I was going to die (I would have hurt him if I had the energy to catch him!). Saw my max HR of 191 at the finish line, which matches this calculator: http://www.stevenscreek.com:80/goodies/hr.shtml

5/1, 5K, I pulled my training partner to a 28:17, a PR for her. I felt great at the end, much better than my 1st! She felt as I had 6 weeks earlier though LOL. My avg HR was 160 at a 9:06 pace. Max 179

5/30, 10K, 1 mile with my partner than off on my own. 55:58, 9:01 pace. Avg HR 168. I have 191 as a max but don't remember feeling it, I finished strong.

Hard to tell exactly how I did in the tris as they didn't separate transition times, and I didn't know the exact start of the measured course. But the first one was 28:12, including transition. 2nd was 27:30, I started my watch after the transition. These were both in August, 2 weeks apart.

Two days later, 5K Xterra race. Included running up a bridge (stairs) and back down. 28:08, 9:03 pace, avg HR 160, max 177, 3rd in my AG Felt strong at the end.

10/8, half marathon, 1:58:26, avg hr 165, in the pouring rain. Couldn't have gone much further but finished strong with a big smile. Did the first 3 miles with my partner then we split off. AG finish was 16/144!!!!

The 3 bike races I have HR stats for are 164/no max, 167/174, 165/179 (last one is skewed as the watch was on about 10 mins after I stopped, my resting HR was about 10 beats too high that day)

On Aug 21, I noted a resting HR of 52 at 10pm
Sept 24 was 44 at 1am
I want to say that 2-3 years ago I was in the mid-60 range

My avg hr for May - Sept runs were 146, 144, 142 , 135, 133

Long runs:
5/22 6.92 mi 139 avg hr 10:16 pace
6/12 6.01 mi 140 avg hr 12:05 pace (couple of walks, hot and humid)
7/2 8.6 mi 9:40 pace (ran alone)
7/19 6.05 mi 137 avg hr 10:19 pace
8/20 8.0 mi 136 avg hr 10:05 pace (hilly)
8/27 9.0 mi 133 avg hr 10:56 pace (hilly, overdressed, alone, felt awful!)
9/3 10.0 mi 133 avg hr 10:25 pace (hilly, felt great, celebrated with ice cream )
9/10 10.0 mi 10:01 pace (hilly, felt great)
9/17 11.0 mi 133 avg hr 10:40 pace (hilly, very humid, felt sluggish)
9/21 8.65 mi 150 avg hr 9:28 pace (ran alone)
9/28 8.0 mi 152 avg hr 9:16 pace (ran alone)

Anyway, I have really seen improvement in my times and abilities! My partner doesn't wear a HRM but I can tell she's improved as well, as she used to only talk for about 1.5 miles. Now she holds full conversations for 4-5 miles at a quicker pace, so I'm sure she can do a sub-30 5K on her own.

I am wondering though, if my alone runs should be a little slower based on my HR. I seem to be doing about 80% of max on them, but I don't run alone that often and like to see what I can do.

BTW her husband is a 4 time Ironman competitor and has competed in numerous tris and marathons, etc. My husband is one year into his training for Ironman Lake Placid 06. It has been pretty interesting for the two of us to find our own methods in all this as her DH is more of a seat of the pants guy, which has worked well for him, and mine hired a coach who started him from the ground up, and it's worked well for him. I will probably have a friend work on a training plan with me as I am moving up to the next level for my mtb races and I still want to run. Not sure if my partner wants to do anything more than a half, and I am planning on a 17 mile race in January.

Hope you found some of this interesting!

Diane
 

posted Oct-23-2005 02:57 PM         

My theory is that the longer your posts about running, the more likely that your running problems are caused in some part by overtraining. The theory is that IF you are so consumed by running that your posts about running are many paragraphs in length then you probably are also consumed enough to be overtraining.

This would seem particularly applicable if you then participated in a running thread for 18 pages. But of course I've already said that I didn't read the 18 pages, so maybe there was a tangent about politics or something.

I am not criticizing. It's just a theory and certainly could be wrong. I've personally been guilty of similar behavior on other websites in the past. In hindsight, I think those were times when I had fallen prey to overtraining. My obsessiveness about running was evident in my posts and also in my training, ergo, overtraining.

I think overtraining is like being an alcoholic. Denial is a major feature.

posted Oct-23-2005 03:50 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by lone ranger:

My theory is that the longer your posts about running, the more likely that your running problems are caused in some part by overtraining. The theory is that IF you are so consumed by running that your posts about running are many paragraphs in length then you probably are also consumed enough to be overtraining.

---

OR it could just be that many people have been requesting detailed information (or appreciate detailed information), in order to make Heart Rate training work for them.

For instance, I've read all 18 pages of this thread. Why? Because I'm working with a heart rate monitor, and any info from someone who is getting the results that I want is helpful.

Here's another theory! Maybe this thread is 18 pages long because no one has gotten around to starting a new one yet. Odd concept, eh? With that in mind, maybe you should go over to the mega-page "Beer" thread in Carbo Canteen, and suggest that they may be "alcoholics".

posted Oct-23-2005 04:05 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by runningiddy:
OR it could just be that many people have been requesting detailed information (or appreciate detailed information), in order to make Heart Rate training work for them.

For instance, [b] I've read all 18 pages of this thread. Why? Because I'm working with a heart rate monitor, and any info from someone who is getting the results that I want is helpful.

Here's another theory! Maybe this thread is 18 pages long because no one has gotten around to starting a new one yet. Odd concept, eh? With that in mind, maybe you should go over to the mega-page "Beer" thread in Carbo Canteen, and suggest that they may be "alcoholics".

[/B]

---

Really I want to repeat that I wasn't criticizing and I hope it didn't sound like criticism. And I will admit that I am either completely wrong or there are major exceptions to what I said. It was just a thought/theory/hypothesis. I think there are at least some people for whom that would be an accurate observation, myself included. I think the length of my posts about running directly correlated with overtraining, in hindsight. For others I'm sure that might not be true. Just something to think about. I am actually running a faster per mile steady pace now than when I was obsessively posting and running gazillion miles per week, although I am running many fewer miles each week, and really not even thinking about the details. But that is just me. Not everyone. I only included the post just in case someone is overtraining and really needs to take a break. Hard to see when it is happening to yourself.

Carry on with thread. My post was ONLY intended as food for thought, nothing more or less.

posted Oct-23-2005 04:19 PM            

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posted Oct-23-2005 04:43 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by lone ranger:
I apologize I am coming into this thread at the very end and read only part of the very first post, but I have a theory that I want to share.

My theory is that the longer your posts about running, the more likely that your running problems are caused in some part by overtraining. The theory is that IF you are so consumed by running that your posts about running are many paragraphs in length then you probably are also consumed enough to be overtraining.

This would seem particularly applicable if you then participated in a running thread for 18 pages. But of course I've already said that I didn't read the 18 pages, so maybe there was a tangent about politics or something.

I am not criticizing. It's just a theory and certainly could be wrong. I've personally been guilty of similar behavior on other websites in the past. In hindsight, I think those were times when I had fallen prey to overtraining. My obsessiveness about running was evident in my posts and also in my training, ergo, overtraining.

I think overtraining is like being an alcoholic. Denial is a major feature.

---

First you should understand that, while overtraining can be a result
of or a form of obsession, it is not entirely equivalent to obsession.
While, running, cycling, and swimming for me can easily be considered
obsessions, my training is very careful and methodical and I cut back
when needed. Not a week goes by where I don't get a comment or
question from someone I run into such as "have you considered
therapy?" There is history prior to this thread which has been
the catalyst for why I continue it on, but suffice it to say that, for me,
the Maffetone training has been my science experiment where I am
the guinea pig (and I welcome other guinea pigs to the table), and
being a researcher by trade (I'm actually an aerospace engineer
with a doctorate) I have always been in the habit of publishing my
results and reading the literature. Ok, so in this case, I'm probably not
qualified, but I'm not sure there are any real qualifications needed to
publish in basic training in cool running. However, I try to present
only facts or, when requested, my opinions based on personal
experience. Given the number of emails
and positive (or negative, but constructive) feedback on the thread
I've received, I've probably put more time into this than I would have
otherwise, but it's quite beneficial both to my running and to my
science experiment to continue the dialogue. So, while I do appreciate
your concern for my well-being, I'll let my posting endurance and the
"market demand" decide when to put it to rest. Or when I feel the
experiment is complete and the conclusions are solid.

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posted Oct-23-2005 05:42 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
That was a great story, Diane! Thank you for sharing.
What does the Mark Allen MAF formula say for you?
In either case, 80% sounds a bit high to do a lot of
mileage and I would say that you should get at least
a chunk of your runs at lower heart rates. It's clearly
low enough for you to see some good progress and
such that you are feeling well after runs and rides,
which are the most important things. Now that your pace
has picked up a lot, it may not be so torturous now to
move to a lower heart rate. Find a period of 8 weeks
where you have no races planned and give it a shot
using Maffetone or Mark Allen's formula (available in
various spots throughout this thread). For you, it would
probably give 180 - your age + 5 since you work out
often. The only problem is that it may throw off your
running with your partner (or she might find the new
pace appealing!)

---

Thanks!

Mark Allen gives me a 145

This is the Steven's chart for me:

% of Maximum Heart Rate Reserve*
Percent 60 sec. 10 sec. 60 sec. 10 sec.
------- ------- ------- ------- -------
100 191.0 31.8 191.0 31.8
95 181.4 30.2 181.4 30.2
90 171.9 28.6 171.9 28.6
85 162.3 27.1 162.3 27.1
80 152.8 25.5 152.8 25.5
75 143.2 23.9 143.2 23.9
70 133.7 22.3 133.7 22.3
65 124.1 20.7 124.1 20.7
60 114.6 19.1 114.6 19.1
55 105.0 17.5 105.0 17.5

I noted above my alone runs, the other long runs were with my partner. As the summer went on, I was down in the 133 average range which puts me at 70%. My alone runs were in the 80% range. I only like to push her so far, she worries me when she stops talking and her breathing gets too ragged! But for short distances I don't mind pushing her a bit. Truth be told, there have been days she's done the pushing as well. Considering I'm planning on a 17 miler and as of now I don't think she is, I feel we'll be doing some separate training this winter.

I should also note that neither of us have done any speed work, we just run. Once in a while we go "faster" and for long runs we do go slower, but some of our paces have shown decent long runs, I didn't expect a low 10 for our 10-miler! We figured we'd get through the half and then see what we wanted to do for the winter.

Maybe since the 17 mile race is in the 2-3rd week of January, I can go from Nov 8 (there is a 5K I want to run on the 7th) till that race at the lower rate and see what happens. We have to learn to run in the cold again. I hate abrupt season changes and it sure feels like we are going through that now!

Thanks for the input, I've really enjoyed these threads. I've had a HRM since xmas 2001 but this is the first year I've really used it as anything other than informational.

Diane
 

posted Oct-23-2005 07:35 PM            

Reading this thread and all the articles you've posted inspired me to buy a heart rate monitor and I'm so glad I did. I've been training with it for several months now. I haven't done any of the benchmarking trials, but I do know that I've gotten a little faster without even trying to.

I've been able to get an idea of how my body feels at various paces. My first couple of 5k races, and in some runs in the high heat and humidity, my heart rate would get super high, almost to the point where I couldn't continue, and I couldn't even feel it coming on.

Now, my legs usually give out before my wind does. Additionally, I've seen huge improvement in my exercise-induced asthma, to the point where I mostly don't need my inhaler anymore. Not when I run and stay in my aerobic zone, anyway.

So thanks to everyone here for sharing this information and all your results. It's been super helpful.

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posted Oct-24-2005 07:50 PM            

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