posted Sep-03-2005 04:57 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by wvdad:
couldnt sleep last night so i ran 5 miles at maf.i did set the incline at .5% so on a hour run i only lost 1 mile compared to what i ran before the hr training. i did notice that i didnt slow hardly at all running miles 2,3@5.2 then slowed to 4.9. the last 3/4 mile my hr seemed to find a second wind and it dropped about five beats.strange but very cool.

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ah, yes, the "warmup drop". I frequently (but not always) notice a
drop in heart rate after 3-5 miles. It doesn't surprise me too much
because even before I did any of this type of running I noticed that
I would run a 5k or 10k race much better if I jogged for 5-10 miles
before than if I started cold turkey or just did some striders or
fartleks to warm up. That's good news.

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posted Sep-04-2005 08:54 PM            

Running has been a lovely experience lately. The sky is clear, the temp. perfect, and really no humidity. Simply wonderful. I hope all of you who are doing MAFF, are having such great weather as I am, here in, Illinois. (kinda makes me feel quilty with the Katrina Hurricane happenings....)

I have, as well, experienced that *drop* in HR after about 4 miles. I look at it as a good thing...I just pick up my pace! I figure this is something good happening, so on I go!

How is everyone else managing? Good, I hope. Don't forget to post so we can see your progress as well.

Soon, I will get more diligent about my distance. Perhaps, next week, I will *drive* my routes after I run and log the distance, and time. Maybe I'll even get as good as LEITNER with % and all!

However, for right now I'm just running for time. The last few days have been 1 1/2 hour runs. Today running a different route ended up being the same, and I was just looking for an hour run. I'm feeling good, though and strong. Monday's run I should make shorter, and add some biking after.

Keep posting so I can be inspired as well !

Oh, and LEITNER, M&B is on the way!

Take care everyone.....

[This message has been edited by Boston124 (edited Sep-04-2005).]
 

posted Sep-07-2005 11:36 AM            

I'lll start from the bottom of your post and work my way up.
First, I saw results VERy gradually. (that's just me...maybe men see results more quickly!) I was always excited when it was a cooler a.m. because my pace would be faster. I'm not sure how long you have been doing MAFF, but you won't see a day-to-day change/improvement. Try not to evaluate each and every run. The book says to check your pace every 2-3 weeks. I checked mine once-a-month....only because the results were better!!! (gotta do what you gotta do to keep you going!!) Once in awhile, I did notice changes from week-to-week if I finished a course faster than week before. AND....that happened for me today. Exactly one week ago, I ran the same course as I did today, only today ran it about 3 minutes faster.

I always have my HR go up and down. When I sneeze, spit, cough, or go up a small incline. Even yawning will increase my HR some. I don't *think*your HR monitor is way off. If you take it to Radio Shack, they will check the battery in you HR strap and watch as well. You may have to reset your watch if they do that. Do you moisten the strap pads before putting it on? I'm sure you do....that helps get a better reading. I wouldn't worry too much.

Mostly, what I'm trying to say is, try not to expect daily changes. [JUST GO OUT AND RUN] It takes time to build that cardio base. You will do it and the fact you had a great run the other day would be enough to keep me going!! I really think if you truly stick with it, you'll be pleased. If you have nothing to lose, no major races to run, and have several months to base build, stick with it!!!!!!!!!

I think your cool down of 2 miles and your HR dropping is just a sign that you recover quickly, and that's a real good thing!! I've read that when that happens you have a strong heart! So, that's wonderful!! Mine does the same, and I'm proud!!! I can then stretch, and finish up.

Keep going!

 

posted Sep-07-2005 01:35 PM         

12-Mar 10:15/mile
27-Apr 9:36/mile
13-Jun 9:25/mile
11-Jul 9:03/mile
10-Aug 8:45/mile
7-Sep 8:36/mile

 

posted Sep-07-2005 07:10 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by enigma21:
Results are very individual, of course, but I have found pretty steady progress since March of this year. If I look back at my weekly averages, the pace for each week has gotten slightly better than the previous week. But, I don't think you can expect each run to be better than the next pace wise because a lot of different factors (temp, terrain, rest, etc.) will come into play. For what it is worth, below are my MAF tests since March with 30 mpw.

12-Mar 10:15/mile
27-Apr 9:36/mile
13-Jun 9:25/mile
11-Jul 9:03/mile
10-Aug 8:45/mile
7-Sep 8:36/mile

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WOW....YOU ARE REALLY GREAT!! AREN'T YOU PLEASED?? How did you like running using the MAFF base building? Did you measure your MAFF tests on the exact same course each test time? You must be feeling so strong!! Congrats!! Are you planning on running a marathon or some other race in the fall?

posted Sep-07-2005 07:40 PM            

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posted Sep-07-2005 08:05 PM         

Prior to reading about Maffetone/Allen, I tried to run each training run at my best possible effort. While I could maintain this for a month or two, I would invevitably come up with some sort of injury that resulted in time off and, in turn, decreased fitness. So it really was pointless. I would get in decent condition (as I understood it then), then get hurt and have to start over. Plus, as I am sure you find via HR, there are some days where your body just doesn't want to "move" as well as the day before. Without the HR and training just by pace, I would push myself through those days at a pace that was much too fast.

Using the MAF concept has allowed me to build mileage comfortably and make steady gains. I think an important point that you and Jesse brought up is the idea that the MAF tests be done under as identical situations as possible. A treadmill would be ideal because you eliminate environmental influences like the wind and, more or less, have a consistent temperature. As someone who doesn't get along with treadmills, I have done all my tests on a outdoor track. If I have a test scheduled and notice that it is particularly windy, I will postpone it a day or two.

Something that people might find odd is that I have not done any runs higher than my MAF HR since starting in March. I think a lot of people would start to plateau closer to 12-16 weeks of base building low heart rate work and then maybe decide to add some speed work. But, to this point, I am continuing to see gains at low heart rates and don't have race plans this fall.

Best wishes.
 

posted Sep-09-2005 07:58 AM            

As I had stated previously in this thread, I plan on using Maffetone through the Fall to base build for my first marathon in the spring. For the last month I have been running at a perceived 70%, as I was waiting for my birthday for my HR monitor. So for the month of August I adjusted my times down and managed to log my highest month of running to date with no injury, stress, strain. I was running an average of about a 5:30km which is about 35 seconds slower a km than I use to train at. Even got in a long run of 30.3 km, longest ever. EXCELLENT results just by slowing down.

So I get my HR monitor on Friday, take it out for an 10k run on Saturday, and what I thought my pace should be came in just about perfect with my Maff Max of 140. I'm happy.

Here is where the problem is. Monday when I ran, I had to get my pace up to a 5:15 km to reach 140, at a 5:30 my HR was in the low 130's. This morning, I was running and I had to run a 5:00 km to get my HR up to 138.

Now I am getting ready for a 1/2M - Race/Run on Sunday so maybe this small taper is affecting me as I'm more rested. Just seems weird.

Also, if my Maff is 140, from what I understand all runs should be below this. Question, how much below? In the 125-135 area?

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posted Sep-09-2005 06:33 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by topdown:
Okay, I'M confused.

As I had stated previously in this thread, I plan on using Maffetone through the Fall to base build for my first marathon in the spring. For the last month I have been running at a perceived 70%, as I was waiting for my birthday for my HR monitor. So for the month of August I adjusted my times down and managed to log my highest month of running to date with no injury, stress, strain. I was running an average of about a 5:30km which is about 35 seconds slower a km than I use to train at. Even got in a long run of 30.3 km, longest ever. EXCELLENT results just by slowing down.

So I get my HR monitor on Friday, take it out for an 10k run on Saturday, and what I thought my pace should be came in just about perfect with my Maff Max of 140. I'm happy.

Here is where the problem is. Monday when I ran, I had to get my pace up to a 5:15 km to reach 140, at a 5:30 my HR was in the low 130's. This morning, I was running and I had to run a 5:00 km to get my HR up to 138.

Now I am getting ready for a 1/2M - Race/Run on Sunday so maybe this small taper is affecting me as I'm more rested. Just seems weird.

Also, if my Maff is 140, from what I understand all runs should be below this. Question, how much below? In the 125-135 area?

---

First, keep in mind that you will have variations in pace (significant
variations) with heat, humidity, resting heart rate, and hills (I can't
forget dehydration either). Vary any of these quantities and things
will change. There's no hard guideline to "how much" lower. Mark
Allen says to do your run between 80% and 100% of MAF. I
found that the lower I ran, the faster my results, and the more
I conditioned myself to be faster at lower heart rates. If you get
to where you can run a decent pace at, say 15 beats below MAF,
then you might want to work different zones on different training
days, all below MAF. Or run 75% of your run at 15 beats below
and your last 25% right at the MAF. You'll want to experiment
for yourself - I'm not sure there's a right answer to that one.

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posted Sep-10-2005 03:50 PM            

I NEVER thought of this! You are brilliant!

I feel so stupid!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I love this idea of 15, 10, 5 beats below Maff for runs, and other runs right at MAFF! I always stayed 2-3 beats below MAFF....but you have inlightened me now!

Thank you!

posted Sep-10-2005 10:31 PM            

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posted Sep-10-2005 10:55 PM            

Back to main subject - sub-topic - speed. Can I sustain speed anymore
after all this low heart rate stuff? Well about 30 posts or so ago, I
described my San Francisco trip, where I ran my last 5 miles out of
20 at 15 beats higher, and last mile 25 beats higher. Got up to about
a 6:20 mile pace, slowed down, and averaged 7:10 for mile 20. Ok,
still can do that. What about faster? Can I sustain something like
my old 5k pace for at least a mile, after having run several. On my
last treadmill run on Tuesday, I noticed that my HR was running a bit
high anyway (rest HR was up about 10 beats), so I decided to
experiment in the last mile. I just gradually picked up the speed until
I hit 12 mph on the treadmill (then I noticed that that treadmill went
*faster* than 12 mph) and above just a bit and quickly back down
to 12 and a bit slower. Finished the 7th mile in my run at 6:26. Ok,
nice confidence that I can still be a bit quick after several miles
without maxing out. From what I can tell, I have not even slowed
down at the short distances by running slower - good news.
I subsequently did my double 20+ miler on Sunday and Monday
(Labor Day) with a 5 mile "fast finish" on labor day, at 15 beats
higher. All's well and I'm still getting 95% of mileage in below
MAF. Since my knee feels all better, I'll try a 20 tomorrow,
assuming I don't aggravate it at some point, in which case I
will stop. On Friday, I begin one of my "triple 20s" in prep for
the Tahoe Triple. We'll see how it goes. If well, then one more
the following week, then taper.

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posted Sep-11-2005 08:30 AM            

I think what I should have said, was always running at Maff., can be grueling, ESPECIALLY at first, and when I add an extra day, after 5 full days of running, it was a good idea when you suggested to another post to *mix-it-up* a bit while still running Maff. (whew....a very fragmented sentence....and I'm a Reading Specialist!!)

There are times when I felt tired, and have run 5,6,8, even 10 beats under Maff. However, one must remember I have done this before, and now doing it, beginning my 2nd full month. I don't mind running this way. Knowing I can go even lower than Maff is a nice option for *those* days when I'm not really up to it.

I do think and know that more consistent you can be a directed Maff HR will get you better results, faster. I do that more than not. I, personally, don't play with the Maff HR # too much in order to get faster sooner.

I'll watch the posts to see how you are doing. I hope your knee allowed you to run today, Sunday.

I hope all the others running the Maff way are getting positive results. Keep posting.

Have a relaxing Sunday evening!
 

posted Sep-11-2005 02:43 PM            

I'm hoping that, as my MAF pace picks up, I'll be able to get more miles in during that time.
 

posted Sep-11-2005 09:18 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by StealthRunner:

PS Jesse- Just a thought. It sounds like your sleep is very troubled. Are you under a lot of stress besides running? Please be careful, you may want to back off a bit. IMHO.- Cathy

---

Nah, I've got a full load, but not much stress. I've always had situations
with weird sleep, even before running, and there have always been times
where I've done odd things in my sleep. I could use more sleep, but
it's a trade off. When I run a lot, I just feel and breathe well, but otherwise
I get headaches, asthma, and heavy congestion. It only took two days
off for me to start feeling crummy. I got my 20 in today, and finally
things turned back up.

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posted Sep-12-2005 02:31 PM            

This was a "to see where I am at" race. I wanted to run the 1/2 at my goal Marathon pace (4:55km) and see how I felt and how my HR was.

So...

First 7k - Averaging about 140

Second 7K - Averaging about high 140's - low 150's

Third 7k - Averaging in the high 150's

Pace was steady

This was a pretty flat course, drank well, all things were equal, pace included, except my heart rate.

So based on this, at this time if I were to run a marathon I would die. It seems that as your body get more tired, you HR increases, not surprising. But to be able to run a Marathon I have a long way to go to.

I am now starting a 18 week base stage. I will be following Hal Higdon's Intermediate II schedule for days and distances, but plan on running all runs 0-15 below Maff.

I really do believe this will be huge in the end.

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posted Sep-12-2005 05:42 PM            

I did something very similiar to what you decided to do and never thought to post about it.

When I did the MAFF Method the first time, I did it for 5 months. (I had already been running 1 1/2 years....so nearly 2 years including the 5 months of MAFF)

After the 5 months of base, I trained for my first marathon using Hal Higdon's Intermediate I program. I ran the entire plan using MAFF. Towards the end of training, there was an 8 miler and I decided to run the last 4 miles alittle faster, about 8 beats faster. I ran those last 4 miles at an 8:30 pace. I was thrilled, really thrilled.

I didn't plan on running the marathon that way. I ran at my HR, and started the marathon way under. I felt strong, very strong the whole way. Granted at mile 23 I felt tired, and I knew my HR went up alittle, and it got sooo....warm by then. I still finished well....something like a 4:25. I can't reallyu remember.

The most amazing part was the next day. I felt fine, No soreness, I cleaned, cooked and did laundry. I give that credit to the months of base buiding and completing all the training runs using MAFF. I question if I could have run faster in that marathon. It was my first, and I wanted to run it the way I did my long runs, the MAFF way.

I will be anxious to know of your marathon results and how you felt during the run. Please post when you can as you train and after the marathon so we can all be aware of how you did, felt, and what you thought of running using the MAFF METHOD. What marathon are training for?
 

posted Sep-12-2005 09:32 PM            

Summary - I am running the Ottawa National Capital at the end of May '06 - I plan on doing two cycles of Hal's programs with 1 full week of rest in between. 37 weeks to go.

So the first 18 weeks will ALL be base. The second I hope to pick things up and run the pace runs at pace.

After the 1/2, I was sort of..."well that's over, nice little run, what next". Last year I ran it 1:30 faster but was layed up for 6 weeks after with IT band injury.

I will keep you guys updated. I love this running and not being drained. It feels great.

Bed time

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posted Sep-12-2005 11:11 PM            

Your doing a GREAT job, and taking it slow...you'll be very successful!

posted Sep-14-2005 02:12 PM            

When I first read this thread several weeks ago, I thought it would be cool to do the MAF test on myself, just to see. It was dismal and depressing ... I've been doing almost all of my running at high heart rates and my body seems to have forgotten how to function at HRs like my MAF of 142.

Since then, I've made sure that the time spent on my feet each week includes at least 50% at or below MAF. This is what's happened in my MAF tests:

Four weeks ago: 16:20
Two weeks ago: 15:30
This morning: 13:18

Can't wait 'til next month to see what happens next in my "experiment of one." Is this common?

pug

 

posted Sep-14-2005 04:06 PM            

I assume that the times you mentioned were for a single mile at MAF HR or under.

The MAF test is a bit more stringent in that you're supposed to monitor your pace for 5 miles, consistently reducing your pace throughout.

As your fitness improves, not only will your MAF pace speed up, it will also slow down less at longer distances if I'm not mistaken.

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posted Sep-14-2005 11:40 PM         

I am just getting into the HRM stuff, so I am still learning. I ran 10 miles on Sunday. My goal was to keep my HR under 140. I was able to do the first 8.5 miles at a constant but slow pace (12.5 mm), but had to slow down for the last 1.5 miles to 13.5 mm to maintain my hr of 139. Is this normal or does it just mean I am not well conditioned? I was on a treadmill if that matters. My legs felt like I could have kept running farther although I was a bit fatigued later in the day. Felt fine the next day. Thank you.
 

posted Sep-15-2005 05:28 AM            

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