posted Aug-30-2005 06:03 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by dgb2n:

I'm leaning towards an interpretation something like "if you do not maintain sufficient time in lower HR zones". In other words, I'm not convinced its the intensity that deteriorates your base, only that you don't spend enough time in a base building zone.

Leitnerj, you have shown such tremendous commitment across your three sports that I'm wondering if your overall training volume would have produced similar results even with the introduction of more effort above MAF.

---

Could well be the % of time you spend under MAF, as a general
rule. I am definitely not sure how the results would have differed
if I didn't put the cycling and swimming pieces in as well. I can
say this, however - about a year ago, I hadn't read Maffetone,
but I was following a <70% HRMax running (not heart rate
reserve) program without cycling, swimming, or any other
aerobic activities. My pace at < 70% improved by about 3 min/mi,
but when I started, I was at about 11:45/mile, not quite as slow
as I was this time. My one-mile race time improved from a bit
over 6:00/mi down to 5:36/mi. My 2 mile went from 13:26 to
12:46 (same course). My marathon went from 4:03 to 3:54
(much harder course for the 3:54). All with no speed work or
fast training, although I did let my heart rate drift for the last
several miles of long, hot runs.

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posted Aug-30-2005 06:06 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by GrayBeard:
I realize that this is a MAF forum but I've been browsing the net and came upon Coach Benson's site.In a nutshell, his methods link HR and perceived exertion for workouts. Thus if one ran a 50:00 min 10K he lists training paces for various levels of effort based on your HR.

Has anyone ever heard of him or done his program? Just curious it seems like an alternative for me. Thanks

Jesse, WAY TO GO!!! Great comittment and dedication. GOOD LUCK!

---

Nah, this is not strictly a MAF forum, it's just the main subject of
the thread. All related stuff is welcome. I've read some of Coach
Benson's stuff. It definitely has a lot more intense runs than pure
MAF training. I would say it's a good type of program to jump into
once the base-building is complete.

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posted Aug-30-2005 06:10 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by pmbooks:
I just want to say...hurray, I'm the 250th post.

---

Just for that, you get a nice prize, this special electronic arrow.

HHHH------------------------>>>>

Congratulations!

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posted Aug-30-2005 07:13 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
- about a year ago, I hadn't read Maffetone,
but I was following a <70% HRMax running (not heart rate
reserve) program without cycling, swimming, or any other
aerobic activities. My pace at < 70% improved by about 3 min/mi,
but when I started, I was at about 11:45/mile, not quite as slow
as I was this time. My one-mile race time improved from a bit
over 6:00/mi down to 5:36/mi. My 2 mile went from 13:26 to
12:46 (same course). My marathon went from 4:03 to 3:54
(much harder course for the 3:54). All with no speed work or
fast training, although I did let my heart rate drift for the last
several miles of long, hot runs.

---

It's funny you mentioned this Jesse. My MAF is 128. When I do a simple MaxHR reading my 70% HRis 128. Not HRR. Purely coincidence?

posted Aug-30-2005 08:20 PM            

Now that I'm doing MAFF again, I'm finding that the *time-on-my-feet* isn't that difficult. So, now, I can run the time, and hopefully get that areobic zone down consistently, and run faster at that HR.

I run minimun, 1.15, to 2 hours daily, 5-6 days a week. One of those days is a hill route, and one longer run, and the rest the same. I don't always know the mileage. When I feel I'm running faster I will *drive* the course and start figuring out all the analytical stuff LEITNER is so good at !!!!! (as well as increasing that longer time run, each week) He's far better with #'s and % than me!!! (I'm fortunate to have figured this HR Monitor watch out...)

So, I guess that's my post for today. I'll post more when I feel more success.....for right now, it's just running, with no stress at my MAFF # of 139 or lower.

I wonder what post(er) # I earned for this post!!!! Do I get an award, too, LEITNER!???

Have a great week, everyone!

posted Aug-30-2005 08:37 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by GrayBeard:
It's funny you mentioned this Jesse. My MAF is 128. When I do a simple MaxHR reading my 70% HRis 128. Not HRR. Purely coincidence?

---

Not too much coincidence - for the typical runner over about age
30 or so, the MAF will come out to be between about 68 and 72%
of actual max heart rate. It's good to know that some of the low
heart rate methods are fairly consistent. For more advanced runners,
the MAF will come out to be more like 72-75%. For me, it's about
69%.

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posted Aug-30-2005 08:40 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boston124:
I wonder what post(er) # I earned for this post!!!! Do I get an award, too, LEITNER!???

---

I don't know - I don't want to cheapen the award that was already
given by giving another one at some obscure posting number. You'll
just have to be more nimble on the keys next time and wait for the
right magic number to roll in!

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posted Aug-30-2005 08:57 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by wvdad:
leitnerj,
according to my half,you were correct about the dropoff at the end.so now i want to try this for three winter months and see what happens.last nite i ran 3 miles on the tm at a 10:00 min/mile pace 1.5 degree incline my hr was 141 for the first mile and then started creeping up to about 165 at mile 3.i wanted to find my max so speeded up and went to 10 degree incline and ran for 3 minutes.then i found out the hard way my hrm maxes out at 191 and that was about midway thru the 3 minutes.so could i assume i could start with maf of 140 and be safe.if so how many miles would i want to run and how many days a week?

---

Well, first I would say that you are starting off at a relatively good
pace if you're maintaining 10 min/mi with an incline. Now, if you
are following the Maffetone or Mark Allen approach, the MAF heart
rate is not a set % of max heart rate (although in many cases it
will be equivalent), but comes from a formula, such as the one
provided in this article: Mark Allen Base Building.
What number does that give you? That's what you should use.
Don't hesitate to set the incline to 0, perhaps for just some of your
runs, as that will give you a bit more pace at MAF. Always start
out low in your run and work your way slowly up. Now, as far
as mileage and days of week, I can't safely answer that one because
it's an individual thing. I was successful my first time doing something
similar to this on about 45-55 mpw. I currently do anywhere from 50-90 mpw, along with a lot of cycling and swimming (all under MAF as well,
most of the time). There are others that have been posting here that
have been successful with much less. Perhaps the more the merrier,
I don't know, but you'll probably see the quickest progress with
35 or more mpw. It also depends on what kind of a race you're training
for. If you're going to do a marathon, then you're best off working yourself
to 35+ per week until you are completely comfortable with that minimum
mileage before even starting a typical 18 week training program. (Then
you don't have to become another coolrunning poster asking why you're in so much pain now that you've reached week 6 of marathon training).
The MAF approach is great for that "build-up" period.

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posted Aug-30-2005 09:46 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by wvdad:
that link says mine is 149.i tried the coolrunning training program for the half and my body didnt handle consecutive days running so i modified it to two 6 mile days and a long day every week so my biggest week was 24 mpw. i am training specifically for the half i am to slow for shorter distances and not yet able to do a full but the half is a big event in parkersburg every year so i plan on running it only.

---

good - if you can keep it lower than 149, all the better. The lower I've
worked the better trained I've become. Mark Allen suggests you try
to focus on the range from 80%- <100% MAF. For most people MAF
is already too slow. You should be fine on 24 mpw. Maybe after a while,
if you run at exclusively low heart rates, you'll find that you can deal with
a little bit more mileage.

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posted Aug-31-2005 07:47 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by wvdad:
well today was the first day. i ran 3.5 miles and stayed under 149. walked 3 minutes for warm up and started running at 5.7 mph. at .75 miles i lowered it to 5.1 mph and pretty much stayed there until last half mile i slowed to 4.7 mph.with warmup and 3 minute walk at the end i did 3.5 miles in 45 minutes. felt like i didnt run at all.should i be concerned about miles or time the most.average runs have been 6 miles and 1 longer one a week.the 6 mile runs being 60 minutes long.should i focus on 6 mile runs now or should i do 60 minute runs and increase speed until i catch up to were i was.hope this works.

---

I've always gone by mileage, but I think most here have gone
by time. Time is probably the best approach if you have
injury concerns. It's certainly an easy way to track your
progress if you fix the time and you pay attention to how much
more mileage you're getting in during the same time frame.
Good luck in the biggest exercise in patience you'll ever
experience!

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posted Sep-01-2005 05:28 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by StealthRunner:
I too have made some progress. I've been walking up the hills( lots of hills where I live) and jogging down them. I had set my beeper to go off at 5 beats above MAF HR. Today I was able to slow jog the last mile of a six mile outing up a gradual incline. Yes! So now I have reset my beeper to my MAF HR. Tomorrow I hit the pool. Jesse, how do you track your HR when you swim? Then we'll see how it goes on Friday again with the jogging. My pace average today was 14:07.

---

Sounds great. Progress is progress! I use my HRM in the pool, where
it works fine.

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posted Sep-01-2005 08:52 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by wvdad:
ran again today,normally i dont every day but this slow pace makes me feel guilty.i dont know how much longer i can stand it but this is only my second day.pretty much a duplicate of yesterdays run.another question if you dont mind is,which benefits more,a 6 mile slow slow run or 2 three mile runs which go faster because of the heartrate staying lowering at first?

---

I'm not sure the answer to that, but it is strange that you would have
to slow down very much over a 6 mile run. It makes me wonder if
the MAF value is on the high side (149, right? Does that mean you're
31?)

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posted Sep-01-2005 10:14 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by wvdad:
yes i am 31,i may not have to slow much more than i already had.i have only done 2 runs so far using my hr as a guideline.i feel like a turtle running at 4.7 on the tm.i work 12 hour shifts and have three sons, so my time is very limited.i really struggle to maintain 4 or five hours a week running.another question, as i understand,you shouldnt go above this hr.but does it hurt to go above it on certain runs during the week.or is the goal to run only below.is so will i lose some of my anaerobic conditioning?

---

You only need to worry about your anaerobic conditioning if
you do a lot 100 meter races. If you do anything 400 meters
and above, it's mostly your aerobic system that should do the
work. I cut 40 seconds off my time in the 1 mile race (down
to 5:36), never running faster than about 9:30/mile over an 8
week period. During basebuilding it does hurt to go over it.
You'll need to get at least several weeks in (recommended
8-12) with strict adherence if you really want to see results.
In other words, there's not much point in trying this thing out
unless you're really committed to it and you feel you really
need to. Yeah, 4.7 is slow, but just try 3.7 mph! After
having run marathons at around 7 mph, 1 mile at 11 mph,
and even a 50 mile race at better than 5 mph. Now that's
slow. The approach is actually quite simple, but very
tedious. Run everything under MAF. Everything. No
matter what conditions, what size hills, how high your
resting heart rate is, or anything. Otherwise, you probably
won't get the benefit. Certainly other approaches work
but they don't generally build up your low heart rate running
as efficiently. Just my experience.

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posted Sep-02-2005 03:55 PM         

I have been running an hour a day 5 days a week for the past 3 weeks using the MAF method. I'm 31 so my MAF is 144 after subtracting the 5 points just to be safe.

How should I pick my pace? I can run at 4.5 on the TM for about 12 minutes before I start going over 144. From then on through the rest of my run, I drop speed slowly as I continue to run, keeping my HR between 139 and 144. By the end of the run I'm often around 3.7 or so. Sometimes lower, somtimes higher.

I can also start out at 4.0 and maintain that speed for most of my run, sometimes having to drop it slightly in the last few minutes or so. But, I also won't hit 144 until around 30 minutes into the run.

Is it better to go slower and steady or to go faster and then drop down as needed? Does it really matter? Distance at these speeds is roughly the same - 3.8 to 4.1 miles in an hour.

Thanks
 

posted Sep-02-2005 06:04 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bishop97:
I've a question which I haven't seen asked/answered (but maybe overlooked it here or in the Maffetone book I have).

I have been running an hour a day 5 days a week for the past 3 weeks using the MAF method. I'm 31 so my MAF is 144 after subtracting the 5 points just to be safe.

How should I pick my pace? I can run at 4.5 on the TM for about 12 minutes before I start going over 144. From then on through the rest of my run, I drop speed slowly as I continue to run, keeping my HR between 139 and 144. By the end of the run I'm often around 3.7 or so. Sometimes lower, somtimes higher.

I can also start out at 4.0 and maintain that speed for most of my run, sometimes having to drop it slightly in the last few minutes or so. But, I also won't hit 144 until around 30 minutes into the run.

Is it better to go slower and steady or to go faster and then drop down as needed? Does it really matter? Distance at these speeds is roughly the same - 3.8 to 4.1 miles in an hour.

Thanks

---

You're better off starting 5-7 beats lower if you're drifting that much
throughout the run. Mark Allen suggests running between 80 and 100%
of MAF heart rate, as low as possible at the beginning of the run. I've
seen the most significant improvement the lower the training heart
rate I choose. However, if you're climbing that much, you might try
to drink more (or any) fluids during your run. What I've noticed is
that if I start on the low side and let it climb, my average pace (and
especially my pace at the end) is always faster than if I start
at the high end and continuously decrease. When I noticed that,
I started actually targeting about 5-8 beats below MAF on most
runs, letting it hit the highpoint up the hills.

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[This message has been edited by leitnerj (edited Sep-02-2005).]
 

posted Sep-03-2005 02:20 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by leitnerj:
You only need to worry about your anaerobic conditioning if
you do a lot 100 meter races. If you do anything 400 meters
and above, it's mostly your aerobic system that should do the
work. I cut 40 seconds off my time in the 1 mile race (down
to 5:36), never running faster than about 9:30/mile over an 8
week period. During basebuilding it does hurt to go over it.
You'll need to get at least several weeks in (recommended
8-12) with strict adherence if you really want to see results.
In other words, there's not much point in trying this thing out
unless you're really committed to it and you feel you really
need to. Yeah, 4.7 is slow, but just try 3.7 mph! After
having run marathons at around 7 mph, 1 mile at 11 mph,
and even a 50 mile race at better than 5 mph. Now that's
slow. The approach is actually quite simple, but very
tedious. Run everything under MAF. Everything. No
matter what conditions, what size hills, how high your
resting heart rate is, or anything. Otherwise, you probably
won't get the benefit. Certainly other approaches work
but they don't generally build up your low heart rate running
as efficiently. Just my experience.

---

leitnerj: I've been using the MAF program for about 6 weeks. I'm coming off a bone bruise injury so I wanted a program that wasn't going to damage my knee again. The question I have is you say to do ALL your running at or below the MAF HR. Yep, I've been doing that. Now, since I'm focusing on the Dallas Marathon on 12/11. My question is: have you ever done any speed work or anything faster than MAF for marathons?....A lot of programs say you need to "teach" your body to run fast..I kind of agree with that, but while the time for my speedwork isn't for two more months, I'd like to get a good training schedule or whatever. Have you ever run an endurance race were you had no speedwork training, then compared it to a marathon where you did have speedwork? To me, speedwork is almost anything more intense than a MAF run. Such as LT runs or hills, or MP miles. At this time in my training, I don't see myself running a very good marathon at MAF pace. I think Parker's book says to run marathons at 75% MRR, which is not, but is close (~ 10 beats higher) to 75% MHR.
Thanks for your help, and I really think this is a great program, because it makes everything objective. Also, I've also felt that since marathon training is a long process, running at a pace in September for a marathon in December is certainly hard to do, considering the temperature. Whereas HR is HR is just that.

Never Quit

posted Sep-03-2005 04:54 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Never Quit:
leitnerj: I've been using the MAF program for about 6 weeks. I'm coming off a bone bruise injury so I wanted a program that wasn't going to damage my knee again. The question I have is you say to do ALL your running at or below the MAF HR. Yep, I've been doing that. Now, since I'm focusing on the Dallas Marathon on 12/11. My question is: have you ever done any speed work or anything faster than MAF for marathons?....A lot of programs say you need to "teach" your body to run fast..I kind of agree with that, but while the time for my speedwork isn't for two more months, I'd like to get a good training schedule or whatever. Have you ever run an endurance race were you had no speedwork training, then compared it to a marathon where you did have speedwork? To me, speedwork is almost anything more intense than a MAF run. Such as LT runs or hills, or MP miles. At this time in my training, I don't see myself running a very good marathon at MAF pace. I think Parker's book says to run marathons at 75% MRR, which is not, but is close (~ 10 beats higher) to 75% MHR.
Thanks for your help, and I really think this is a great program, because it makes everything objective. Also, I've also felt that since marathon training is a long process, running at a pace in September for a marathon in December is certainly hard to do, considering the temperature. Whereas HR is HR is just that.

Never Quit

---

This is a very valid question and a difficult one to answer (more
difficult than the ones that say "will this work for me?") I can
give you two related data points. The first time I tried this form
of training (not exactly Maffetone, but close), I ran at < 70%
HRMax for 8 weeks, no speedwork, a few times going over
70% on hills and such, and I ran a one mile race in 5:36,
compared to my previous best which I did a short time before
starting low HR training, in 6:10. I continued mostly low
heart rate training, but I ran various races every week or two,
5ks, 10ks, etc., and improved a lot in all of them. However,
before I had started the training, I had been running 40-50 mpw,
speed work, tempos, etc., so I still "remembered" how it felt
to run hard (which I think was the most important thing - not
the anaerobic conditioning). Now, this time, assuming you've
read a lot of my drivel here, you would know that I started up
when recovering from a bone bruise on my knee, so I had
enough motivation to keep me from pushing to hard so as not
to re-aggravate it. In this case, I had not run at all in about
3 months and my running conditioning was very poor when
starting. Slowly I have built up my aerobic speed, bit by
bit, until now I am running at reasonable paces below MAF,
at least when the temp is not too hot and when it is not too
humid. When I was in San Francisco, great weather, much
cooler and not muggy like here, my average pace was about
1-1:30/mile faster than here. On my first 20 mile run there,
I decided to take the last mile at about 15 beats higher, just
to see how it would feel. That got me to just over an 8 min
mile, and it felt quite good, not very stressful. The next day
I did another 20 miler, and decided to take miles 16-19 at
about that pace, and 20 even harder. So, I did 16-19 in the
low 8s, and in mile 20, I picked up speed until I hit a 6:20
mile (according to the forerunner) and then slowed down a
bit, finishing that one in 7:10 for the 20th mile. The test I
haven't done is to see how it would feel to sustain a pace
in the 8s over 20 miles, or particularly 26.2. I would say
that as long as you think you have fully recovered from
your bone bruise (which is a big "if"), you certainly want to
start incorporating some more intense runs, perhaps a 5k
or 10k race, or doing the last 5-7 miles in your long run
at 20 beats higher or so. I would say it's mostly for
confidence, but you do want to make sure you can still
tolerate running at higher heart rates.

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